The dragon has two tongues
Wales Business — By Heledd Fychan on July 14, 2011 7:00 am
Should debate in Wales only take place in English?
The gist of the negative comments are as follows. If people want to write in Welsh, then they are welcome to do so providing they spend another hour at the end translating it into English. Furthermore, some people were concerned that they were being excluded from the debate, and that whilst it is fine for people to speak Welsh, if they want to write about an issue of national importance, it is their duty to do so in English so that everyone can understand. Even if, it seems, that the article in question is about the Welsh language channel, S4C!
These comments angered me. But, rather than just arguing with people on twitter about it, I wanted to widen the debate so that we have the opportunity to discuss maturely why some people felt so aggrieved by our decision to publish something in Welsh.
Being bilingual, and having the right to use both my languages as I like is important to me. Welsh is my first language, and I find it extremely offensive if people suggest that I don’t have the right to use it as I wish in my own country. It is an integral part of me. I think in Welsh. I dream in Welsh. I write my diary and write my daily to-do list in Welsh. I’m not trying to be difficult, awkward, stubborn or offensive. I’m not trying to exclude you or take a stance. I’m simply being me. I express myself better in Welsh, and feel more comfortable speaking in Welsh rather than in English.
Far from being a dead language as was suggested by some, Welsh is a living language and even today, you can live a fully bilingual life here in Wales. I can go to the Dr, Optician, Hairdresser, Butcher and Dentist and speak to them in Welsh. I can even order a Chinese take away in Welsh when I’m home in Caernarfon. The suggestion that I should therefore have to write in English if I want to debate is, frankly, laughable.
If I have to provide something in Welsh and English, I prefer to write both from scratch as I tend to write completely differently depending on the language I’m using. References to poems and songs, or certain nuances and sayings cannot always be translated and it is naive to think that words automatically have the same meaning. Translation is a skill, and just because you can speak both languages does not mean that you’re necessarily a good translator. Hence why organisations pay professionals to do the job!
Welsh speakers don’t have more hours per day than English speakers and neither do we need less sleep or live longer. Unless we are natural translators, it can take hours to translate quite a short article. If you are that paranoid about being excluded when reading a Welsh article published on WalesHome, you have two options: use google translate to get the gist of an article or learn Welsh. I use the former regularly to understand articles written in French or Italian, and though it is far from perfect, it works well.
WalesHome is a voluntary project. No one makes money out of it, and we are lucky to have some fantastic contributors. We are also grateful that so many people read and comment on the site. We don’t want to exclude or offend anybody, but it has been our intention for some time to encourage people to contribute in either English or Welsh so that we continue to generate interesting and thought provoking articles relevant to all aspects of life in Wales. If this is successful, then we cannot always guarantee or provide a translation for pieces received in Welsh.
Rather than feel threatened or excluded, we hope that the majority of our regular readers will feel encouraged about this development. Wales is a bilingual country, and we hope to be able to reflect that fact within the site in a natural rather than a forced manner. I know many non Welsh speakers have no issue with the language, and are proud to live in a country with two languages. Like it or not, Welsh is not just confined to trivial conversations. Debate is alive and kicking in both languages here in Wales, and we hope that those who want to write in either language will continue to send articles for publication without there being an outcry over their language of choice.
Tags: bilingualism, Welsh Language
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84 Comments
So where do you want to go with this, Julian? What about Welsh speakers that don’t access English language Welsh programmes? Do they have a say in what they pay for?
And then once we’ve finished applying this ultra-individualistic approach to funding linear TV, how do you propose that any television gets made? This is purely subjective, and you can’t make funding decisions – or TV – in this way, not if you want to be pleasantly surprised by what appears on the box in the corner of the room. What would happen to something popular like, say Top Gear, if people were allowed to make such subjective choices? Would we still have it?
Even in an era of iPlayers and catch-up, linear TV remains stubbornly popular. You can’t decide on funding Welsh language TV without addressing wider issues of choice, and you can’t make linear TV if you address those wider issues of choice.
Duncan, I wouldn’t bother trying to reason with Julian Ruck. He’s just trying to stir up division and hatred like a linguistic BNP. His whole tone is meant to enflame and his content is more about provocation leading to anger than it is about promoting real debate. The only surprising thing he has said so far is that he doesn’t know what a troll is.
I take your point Duncan but the Idiot’s Lantern, be it linear or otherwise is hardly a fountain of intellectual endeavour is it? So would anyone be any worse off without a Welsh version? As for Top Geared Up playtime for adults well…….
The bottom line is this:- a wheelchair or a television programme in Welsh and of appalling quality that very few people watch?
As for your point re Welsh speakers paying for S4C,70+ percent of Welsh GDP comes from Westminster. Welsh speakers’ taxes (which are minimal in the grand scheme of national economics)contribute virtually nothing toward S4C as is the case with the license fee.
And please note that all Welsh speakers are perfectly capable of communicating in English so S4C is nothing more than an expensive indulgence – try and say otherwise to someone waiting for a home carer to turn up.
Oh dear,I note the insults are starting to fly again. I am now a ‘linguistic BNP’ it seems, although the term does appear to be a trifle contradictory if not grammatically bereft.Nevermind but I do wish you aficionados of the Welsh language would at least recognise fact instead of indulging in rather puerile mud-slinging,such conduct merely serves to diminish the Welsh in the eyes of what is now a rather small world.
As for ‘Division’ is not this precisely what a Welsh language nationalist and seperatist agenda is achieving? Nothing to do with me I assure you, I am merely a humble scribbler.
PS And please note Daran that my comments are never personal. That might well be seen as a little immature.
Julian – I genuienly feel sorry for you for having such a narrow and bitter view of Wales. It is not an indulgence to speak your own language in your own country. Luckily, views such as yours are dying out. There is no room for blatant racism and ignorance in the Wales of today. Welsh is very much alive, and if you can’t see that, then it’s a shame. Open your eyes and you’ll see how fantastic it is that Wales is a genuinely bilingual and vibrant country, with a rich history.
You seem to suggest that there is no point in having any other language or culture in the world other than English. How sad. Luckily, you are in a minority!
To Julian Ruck
So far the text of your posts has been unoriginal and hackneyed and the plot telegraphed.
Are you suffering from writer’s block.
Have I not said repeatedley that good luck to anyone who wishes to speak and write in the Welsh language? This is your right and fair enough.Why do you people constantly twist and corrupt my words? You do nothing but belittle the Welsh and bring Welsh culture into disrepute. My novels on the other hand, which have sold thousands of copies do nothing but promote Wales to the outside world.
And with intemperate opinions such as yours Heledd it is no wonder that the Army of Home Rulers (Plaid Cymru) was recently ejected from Llanelli.
PS And since when did I say that speaking Welsh is an indulgence???? I was referring to S4C, so Heledd may I suggest you scratch up on your English translation.
Julian, re-read your words and you will see that you have called it an indulgence plus have suggested that we should pay for the right/ privilege to speak Welsh or watch Welsh language tv. If anyone is intemperate it is you. Also, to quote your earlier comment about this article – this was your initial view:
“I note its moderate tone and can only say that such ‘moderation’ is indeed refreshing.It certainly trounces the intemperate, uncouth and juvenile reactions I receieved from thousands (not such an insignificant over-zealous minority you will agree)of Welsh speakers when my own blog opined that the Welsh language ‘sounded like a turkey being strangled’.”
At least my arguments are consistent!
Regarding Llanelli, you do realise the new AM is a fluent Welsh speaker and declares himself to be a nationalist, thus negating your argument?
You are obviously very bored, and just want to pick silly fights. People are not twisting and corrupting your words. We can’t help it if you’re being inconsistent!
Oh dear yet again. I repeat ‘S4C is nothing more than an expensive indulgence…..’ Welsh really is your first langauage isn’t it Heledd, I commend you.And frightfully sorry and all that but to my barbaric lugholes the Welsh language does sound like a turkey being throttled and that’s that. Does everyone have to like Wagner? I am entitled to my opinion as indeed are you but at least I don’t insult you personally for expressing it.
There is no point debating with someone who is so blatantly racist. Comparing a language to a composer is just ridiculous. And if you think you’re not being personal, then you are greatly mistaken. There is no space for racism in this world. I’m sorry for you that you hold such views. It must be an awfully bitter life to lead.
Actually Heledd I lead a damn fine life, wine, women, song and the odd novel in between bouts. Bloody marvellous!
Wagner can be really quite inspiring on the hanky panky front too you know.You should try him!
“Wagner can be really quite inspiring on the hanky panky front too you know.”
He should have won X-Factor…
Now there’s a thought Duncan!His Valkyries would certainly have found all those ‘X’s handy, none of them I believe ever learnt to speak Welsh!
To Julian Ruck
But you originally went further than opining “the Welsh language does sound like a turkey being throttled and that’s that”
You continued on to say
“and should, like the Dodo, have been confined to the history books years ago.”
You mention that not everyone has to like Wagner and indeed to my barbaric lugholes his operas sound like drunks attempting to out yodel one another and that’s that. I like you are entitled to my opinion.
However if I go on to say that I think that Wagner’s operas should have been confined to the history books years ago I’d be depriving you and others of the pleasure you find in his music.
Maybe I could convince myself that such small-mindedness, meanness and musical philistinism was justified as the money saved from withdrawing the significant public subsidies opera companies and orchestras receive would mean more wheelchairs and home carers for the majority of us who as you will know don’t want to listen to Wagner’s works and certainly don’t use them for inspiration.
“Wagner can be really quite inspiring on the hanky panky front too you know.”
“He should have won X-Factor…”
A travesty.
I lost faith in the programme after that.
Dear CapM,
You know you really should stop taking the Welsh language so seriously.You nationalists will make yourselves ill if you’re not careful. When compared with other countries believe me there is nothing particularly special about Wales, its history, its language, its people.Get over it.We’re all just human beings trying to get along in a rather nasty world and if the human race is to survive then we should be seeking a ‘World’ government and not the ugly,brutal and pointless ambitions of a nationalist hegemony.
Oh and your critique of Wagner is fine with me, his Ring can be a trifle noxious on occasions I agree.
Can people just ignore Julian Ruck? His comments about the Welsh language are nothing more than an infantile attempt to raise publicity for his struggling writing career. It’s a shame that he has to resort to such lows but then again in our society picking on a minority group is always a sure way of getting noticed. Trouble is Julian, the Welsh have no respect for the prejudices of the narrow minded so don’t expect a boost in sales.
Dear BartiDdu,
Insult and juvenile spite are rarely an intelligent form of argument albeit that you of a Welsh speaking nationalist persuasion seem to clearly excel at it (see above). As for my ‘struggling writing career’ somehow I really don’t think so unless of course your last novel is now being pushed in China, Italy, Pertugal, Eastern Europe etc etc Perhaps you could enlighten us all on this.
Oh and I note that none of you nationalists take issue with the broad facts of my argumnet ie that only 20 odd percent of people in Wales speak Welsh with maybe only 2% being able to actually write it.That the language has no commercial value whatsoever. That 74% of Welsh GDP comes from Westminster and that the Welsh Assembly is nothing more than an embarrassmnet with an official stamp on it.Further I have never once advocated that the the Welsh language should be anhilated or disadvantaged, all I have maintained is that its cost to the tax payer should be modified if not drastically reduced (particularly in these starightened times) and like the ‘family pet,it should be cared for and preserved but not allowed to bite’.To my ears it does sound ike a turkey being strangled – tough, that’s my opinion and I’m entitled to it just as you are entitled to yours.
ENGLISH IS THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF WALES NOT WELSH.AND WALES WOULDN’T LAST FIVE SECONDS WITHOUT WESTMINSTER. GLENDOWER AND HIS TRIPARTITE INDENTURE, THE TREACHUROUS BLUE BOOKS AND THE ‘WELSH NOT’ WERE A LONG TIME AGO SO WHY DON’T YOU ALL JUST GROW UP AND STOP FEELING SORRY FOR YOURSELVES. ‘PICKING ON A MINORITY GROUP’ MY ARSE!
Julian
I’d be grateful if you did not write in capital letters. It’s terribly impolite and probably violates our Comment Policy.
To BartiDu
I’ll try but must admit that aggravating trolls with a metaphorical pointy stick is a guilty pleasure of mine.
Actually Julian, English is only the first language in the relatively small part of Wales you happen to live in.
By the way, you shouldn’t let your inability to speak the indigenous language of the country you live in make you feel inadequate and in some way inferior to the hundreds of thousands of people who do. I’m sure everybody has their own intellectual limitations in one field or other.
Having seen you peddle your writing in Bridgend (of all places) you must forgive me for not rating your success too highly. Unless of course I just happened to miss John Grisham, JK Rowling and Jodie Picoult that day. Your comments about the Welsh language are not original and are quite frankly offensive to many thousands of Welsh-speakers and non-welsh speakers alike. The reality is that the Welsh language is growing all the time, and the fact that numerous companies offer services in welsh means that welsh does have a commercial value. Granted it may not be the same as English but Welsh has a commercial value that is undeniable, furthermore the Welsh language has a huge cultural value that you simply cannot put a price on. Bilingual education is increasingly popular with parents and Welsh medium schools often outperform their counterparts. There is even strong medical evidence that shows bilingualism aids the elderly in preventing dementia and age related brain degeneration. Monoglots are far more likely to develop such conditions. Moreover your association of the Welsh language with Welsh nationalists is sure to draw the ire of many a non-nationalist Welsh speaker. Perhaps you should ask the Welsh conservative party about their recent Assembly manifesto. The Welsh conservatives have produced one of the most ambitious and positive policies towards the Welsh language. Attempting to tie the indigenous language of this great country with a political tint is thoroughly disingenuous. As to your comments about Westminster and the Assembly,they are not worth dignifying with a response, I’ll leave the readers of waleshome to judge you by such revealing comments. Julian if I had to pick an animal that sounded like you then it would be a dinosaur.
Dear Adam,
My apologies for any ‘violation’, it was not my intention.I merely used captals to highlight a point – a common enough exercise and not one I believe that is usually seen as ‘terribly impolite’.I cannot help but feel obliged to point out however that whilst you may feel compelled to comment on the said use of capitals perhaps you may also consider the liberal use of personal insult that has been directed at me from some of your other contributors.I have yet to observe any editorial reprimand in this direction. You wouldn’t be a nationalist Welsh speaker too would you?
“Can people not ignore Julian Ruck? His comments about the Welsh language are nothing more than an infantile attempt to raise publicity for his struggling writing career.”
I agree. He’s just an unknown author looking to generate publicity by trolling blogs/websites. Nobody cares.
10 out of 10 Adam! I didn’t think you would go along with my last comment.The bile and venom I receive on my Blog from some Welsh speaking nationalists is sometimes really quite astonishing.Thank you for exercising some balance.
Please, people, can we stop feeding the trolls? It only sustains them.
“I cannot help but feel obliged to point out however that whilst you may feel compelled to comment on the said use of capitals perhaps you may also consider the liberal use of personal insult that has been directed at me from some of your other contributors.”
You are correct. Such activity is unnecessary and transgressive. I urge all contributors to read and abide by the Comment Policy and note that it will be enforced from here on in.
“You wouldn’t be a nationalist Welsh speaker too would you?”
And that includes the ad hominem rule.
I really don’t mind what this old roué has to say about the Welsh language & nationalists & the Assembly – it’s very similar to what True Wales were spouting a few months ago & look where it got them.
Some final words before I embark upon yet another journey to London. Sadly, some of your contributors have sought to defame and libel me. I cannot help but wonder how many of them would do this were it not for the veil of anonymity that protects them. At least I exercise the courage to be identified with my convictions and not the cowardice that merely diminishes the integrity of this site.
Best wishes to you all and adieu!
Julian Ruck
I was going to trash the above comment, as I have with a couple of others from Julian last night, because he ignored Adam’s warning flag about our Comment Policy, and because this argument is being unduly extended through his combative approach.
With one or two exceptions, WalesHome has been fortunate in that many of the people who take time to leave comments do so in the spirit of the site, which is meant to represent as many views as possible, and give respect to such a divergence of opinion. That Julian has decided to ignore the facts so that he can continue to pursue his own belligerent agenda is his own business (asking my brother, a well-known opponent of nationalism, if he was one just demonstrates this point).
As a man who makes his living from writing, he cannot use the “just saying” and “you’re over-reacting” defence. He understands fully well the weight of his words, so we have to conclude that he has come to WalesHome to pick fights and expound a McCarthyite viewpoint that insidious nationalism is all around us. As we have seen, disagreeing with him is enough to have have him accuse someone as such.
So to cry foul, suggest defamation and criticise the “integrity of this site” (hands up who had a bet that one was coming?) is rich in the extreme. Unfortunately for Julian, in a previous existence, I had to deal with threats of defamation on a weekly basis. The common mistake also made by Julian is that it is a threat at all. It is no such thing. It is a mechanism for redress.
Not only is it financially beyond all but a few Russians and a couple of African despots, but its prime purpose is to decide if there is a case for financial redress as a consequence of defamation.
The crucial test here is the size of our audience, and Julian would have to demonstrate that the comments of a few anonymous posters on WalesHome led directly to an adverse impact on his book sales or any other aspects of remunerated work he engages in as a consequence of his unfairly maligned good name. WalesHome’s defence would rest upon pointing to his rants and arguing that he’s done that all by himself.
However, in the hope that this matter won’t find its way to court, the WalesHome editorial team has decided not to publish any further comments from or about Julian Ruck. We hope this brings the matter to a close.
Oh dear. This debate reminds me of the line “worrying the carcass of an old song”. It’s time to whistle another tune.
Iestyn, nobody called ‘encore’, let alone worried the carcass, until you came along 3 days later.
Simple really I spent 46 years in the Labour party, doing a lot of work for them, I was asked to go to a meeting of Plaid, off I go and although I can speak Welsh it ain’t that good, listening to everything in Welsh and the speed it was going I was missing lot of it.
After the meeting I was listening to the chit chat and it was all in English I was told only a few people spoke Welsh, and I thought why would anyone go to a meeting if they cannot understand it, I did not join Plaid although I did vote for them