In their search for a new identity, Plaid Cymru will find little solace in their march to the right
Bubble — By Susan Elan Jones MP on March 29, 2011 7:00 am
A better Wales or a more right wing Plaid?
IF THERE was ever a fitting metaphor for a political party experiencing an identity crisis in the modern world, then surely having two competing twitter feeds during your Spring Conference must be right up there. The work of a prankster the rogue @PlaidCymru twitter feed may have been, but the fact that media and politicos alike were taken in by it for a while suggests that this is a party from which people now expect mixed messages.
It wasn’t always so. Growing up in North Wales, I certainly understood why many of my teachers and other adults around me voted for Plaid Cymru in the 1970s and 1980s. It was the matter of the language and the lack of any democratic devolution. Too often, in a country under siege economically and socially, Labour neglected to stand up for Welsh as a community language. We didn’t always grasp it as a cause for the left. The situation today is profoundly different, and through the Assembly the Welsh Labour Party has legislated to sustain and develop the language.
Plaid Cymru’s other great cause celebre, independence for Wales, was long ago put on the back burner. Polls consistently suggest that there is absolutely no appetite for such a move and that increasingly seems to apply to those politicians and staff who have had experience in the Assembly Government. So it is reasonable to ask the question. What is the point of Plaid Cymru in 2011? Or to paraphrase the party’s former Chair, John Dixon, what is Plaid Cymru for?
The clues from their Conference weekend were troubling for anyone, like me, who embraces a political dynamic in Wales that is both progressive and pluralistic. For it seems that Plaid Cymru’s aimless drift to the right is morphing into a determined march in that direction. I should say, I don’t mean “right” in the extremist sense, but as pertaining to a new small “c” Welsh conservatism? Certainly.
Witness the timing of the Conference itself – the clash with the March for jobs which took place in London. It is difficult to imagine that Plaid would have missed the opportunity to show solidarity with struggling public sector workers if Adam Price was still in charge of their campaigns.
Witness too, recent policy announcements from Plaid Cymru. Dress it up however they like, the unworkable “Build for Wales” scheme is a Private Finance Initiative by another name. Indeed, the only example Plaid has presented on the kind of work this fund could be used for, is the A55 road dualling in North Wales. That was a PFI scheme, pure and simple.
The call to devolve teachers’ pay and conditions was understandably met with complete resistance by teaching unions and more broadly the suggestion that Plaid Cymru would be happy to see the introduction of regional pay bargaining suggests they have abandoned any hope of making inroads with the trade union movement in Wales.
Even where one of their more traditionally left-wing members, Leanne Wood, presented a plan to help improve the Valleys economy, I couldn’t help thinking that surely communities in the Valleys don’t want their own currency; they want a their rightful, fair share of the same currency as everyone else.
The culmination of this recent pattern of course, is the failure of the Plaid Cymru leadership to rule out doing a deal with the Tories, if no party wins a majority in May. They may see that as smart negotiating tactics, but for the communities in Wales who see unemployment reaching record levels as the Tory cuts start to hit home, it just reeks of betrayal.
I know that many progressives who have traditionally supported Plaid Cymru are seriously concerned by how the left-wing inside Plaid Cymru seem to be losing the battle for the party’s soul. At a time when the ConDem Government in Westminster is causing so much misery, I cannot quite believe that Plaid will not rule out working with the Tories full stop. As someone who is profoundly indebted to that generation of Pleidwyr who believed in D J Williams’ vision of community socialism, it saddens me to see Plaid marching to the right and resultantly, becoming more and more irrelevant to the people of Wales.
Tags: Plaid Cymru, Susan Elan Jones MP, Welsh Government
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58 Comments
Couple things that are slightly misleading and erroneous with this article Susan, and you know it too!
Firstly Labour delivering the Welsh language measure? When it was Plaid’s policy and a Plaid Minister who steered it through? Come off it, stop pulling the wool over people’s eyes. I would be surprised if Cymdeithas even had the respect to even come meet the Labour party in Wales- I would be led to believe that one of the reasons the measure is watered down as much as it is was because some Labour AMs felt at unease with the measure.
Secondly, the March for the Alternative was probably arranged way after the conference calendar had been booked in and media commitments with the BBC, from which I believe, take months of organisation. And you have the cheek to bandwagon that March as a Labour initiative?
The reason we are in this mess is because Labour brought this country to it’s knees, with irresponsible lending and spending, bailing out the banks without terms and conditions and silly PFI deals that your party loved.
Finally, how dare you even suggest Plaid are losing their way?!
I have yet to hear of one new and innovative policy idea from Welsh Labour- “oh let’s fund some new PCSOs”- hardly revolutionary don’t you think?
Ideas such as the Build for Wales scheme show that Plaid Cymru have indeed moved on from moaning about Barnett reform, the savagery of Westminster cuts- showing that we are looking at real alternatives for delivering for Wales- alternatives your Cabinet members have signed off on!
Plaid banged on about Barnett reform, Welsh language measures, law making referenda for years before the Labour Party went “oh wait, that’s a cool idea, let’s park our tanks on the Plaid lawn and portray the idea as our own”.
It’s fine, because eventually you will all be singing from the Plaid Cymru hymn sheet- if history repeats itself, and with the Labour Party it usually does.
Yes, your party may be claiming to stand for Wales’ corner, but where were you during the 12 years you were in Government. Not once did Labour make representations to the Westminster Government over Barnett reform!
This article is just another shoddy showing from an MP, who like Hain, is more concerned with attacking Plaid to try and keep their party’s lack of relevance and innovation out of the limelight.
My Gran used to say that everyone should be a socialist when young, it shows you have a heart; but sensible people become conservative (little ‘c’) when they grow up, it shows they have a brain. So perhaps it shows that Plaid have grown up!!
But then again…..
Hopefully this sort of negative article will be few and far between on Waleshome in the run up to the election, whichever party pens them.
At the least if negatives/ supposed negatives of political opponents are highlighted then they should be accompanied by positive suggestions/solutions for improvement from the author’s own party.
In addition I find the method of expressing concern (faux concern) for the fortunes of political rivals in order to get one’s points across rather insulting to the intelligence.
Is this article a serious one?
So many mistakes, so hunches.
Plaid’s suggestion to borrow money (Keynsian economics if anything is) … is a drift to the right?
Weak article.
Plaid are losing it. I want to vote for a Nationalist party, not Labour-lite or Tory-lite.
If it gets any worse I’m voting Meibion Glyndwr*
*kidding, but you get the idea
A fake twitter – is that the best Susan can do?
Labour can make no claim to the progressive vote after cuddling up to the city while in power, failing to regulate and taking us into illegal imperialist adventures. In that respect they have been pink Tories.
Susan is a lone voice in Labour’s ranks in being passionate about the Welsh language – most of her Westminster colleagues despise it. So do most of her local Labour councillors, who have campaigned vociferously against a new Welsh-medium school in Wrexham. The dinosaur tendency is alive and kicking, Susan. That’s also why hardly anybody from the Labour party locally lifted a finger to leaflet for the Yes campaign (yes, Ken Skates managed to turn out in Rhos for one session but the other 12 were Plaid).
Plaid is coming up with some bright innovative ideas about rejuvenating and reshaping the Welsh economy. Labour only managed to rehash Tory policies – including PFI. Plaid is clearly to the left in opposing the cuts, in opposing British imperialist wars and promoting a green agenda for jobs. Where are the bright ideas from Labour?
Desperate mudslinging from someone who knows her party has no radical soul, just opportunism.
I’m not sure if the sentence, ‘Private Finance Iinitiative by another name’ is SEJ knowing she is misleading the audience deliberately or, as i would imagine is the case, another example of a Labour politician not understanding economics and jumping the gun. Labour, as we see from Britain’s balance sheet, have a history of failing on economics but on this issue the Labour party in Wales has excelled itself. Given Jane Hutt signed up to the proposals I would ask SEJ why she thinks its so bad when her Minister thinks its good?
Anyway I would advise SEJ to read these excellent articles by Madoc Batcup which outline the detail of the Build for Wales idea. Perhaps she will be better informed in future.
http://waleshome.org/2011/03/how-to-get-the-cranes-moving-again/
http://syniadau–buildinganindependentwales.blogspot.com/2011/03/build-for-wales-plaid-cymrus-scheme-to.html
I wont comment on the rest of what is a tribal negative article that is not only deliberately factually incorrect but offers no apology or explanation for Labour’s right wing agenda for the 13 years they were in power or even a single reason why anyone should vote Labour now? It is just a continuation of Labour’s vote for us because we can sling mud better than anyone else approach. A good debate platform like WalesHome deserves better really.
Susan Elan Jones is getting her DJ’s mixed up. DJ Davies not Williams advocated community socialism. That’s without touching on the rest of errors and mistakes in the article. Mentioning regional bargaining when regional pay in the civil service was a Labour policy she stood on in the 2010 elections? Mentioning language legislation that came from Plaid? Poor form from Labour’s new crop.
revenai: was your gran Winston Churchill?
Very, very poor article.
It was obvious to everyone that the @PlaidCymru twitter feed was a fake one, probably run by the same people who set up NatWatch and the terrible Aneurin Glyndwr. Everyone knows who was behind those – the Labour Party (or more specifically, a certain reseacrher for Leighton Andrews, and then Peter Hain). That account has been Suspended – http://twitter.com/PlaidCymru – for breaking Twitter rules.
Your claim that Plaid Cymru is drifting to the right because
1, the date of the conference – which was arranged months in advance of the march in London. Commitments had been made, and obviously the date could not be changed = NONSENSE
2, “Build for Wales” is not PFI, and it has been revealed that the Labour led coalition in Wales have been looking in to a similar idea = NONSENSE!
3, The call to devolve teachers’ pay is supported by the only Welsh teaching union UCAC. It is true to say that the English teaching unions with branches in Wales currently oppose this, but they will probably have a change of heart once they realise what the Tories’ plans are in England! Plaid has never advocated regional pay bargaining, only a national regional pay bargaining for Wales = NONSENSE!
4, Leanne Wood right wing? = ABSOLUTE NONSENSE
5, Deal with the Tories? Plaid leader Ieuan Wyn has said that this is very unlikely, but as all responsible parties, one shouldn’t rule anything out before the people decide on May 5th.
As a strong Welsh Socialist myself, I fully support Plaid and their policies.
A rather dull and uninspired attack on Plaid. Hain must be proud of you.
Methinks some people are biting. I’d suggest that’s because, after the delivery of legislative devolution and with a Tory Government in Westminster, Plaid are coming across as a bit lost, searching for a purpose; when, as Susan rightly points out, Welsh Labour has learned to respond to legitimate concerns about the Welsh language and embraced the merits of devolution. By the way, that’s something Plaid supporters have spoken to me about recently, so don’t just say it’s me as a Labour member being tribalist.
Surely the Labour party has moved on from this sort of purile nonsense after such a positive referendum result?
I do hope that this is just a Hain inspired one-off and not Labour’s election mantra. The least that the people of Wales deserve after giving such a positive message on March 3rd, is a constructive policy debate from all the parties.
Come on Labour – you are better than this.
This is a terrible article – factually incorrect, probably deliberately so since the author isn’t stupid, negative and tribal, and whose churlishness is matched only by its feebleness.
First, the truly lame accusation about about timing party conferences – they’re planned months in advance, so it’s hardly a deliberate clash in that sense (and by the way, did the author go on the protests in London herself?).
Second, I didn’t notice SEJ or her bosses complaining about PFI when Labour was using it, in ways we’re all still paying for. Third, whatever your views on Leanne Wood’s scheme, one thing it is not is Private FI. Fourth, some Labour politicians are actually quite keen on it…
Fifth, Labour has supported regional pay bargaining, and to do so in Wales isn;t necessarily bad, especially since devolved pay might put Labour and not the Tories in charge of pay and conditions – regional pay operates in many countries with leftist governments.
Sixth – it’s DJ Davies she means
Seventh – oh God, make it stop…
You get the gist. This is a truly poor piece, but what it really masks is the way in which Labour devolutionists need Plaid so they can go to their London bosses and say ‘Hey, give us a bit of room here, those Nats are agitating and creaming some of our votes’, while Plaid need people like SEJ to help implement policies and aims. That’s the interesting article – one that elucidates the often subconscious co-operation, the collusion even, beneath the tribalist surface of Welsh politics.
Plus the irony that, yes, Plaid – now that they have succeeded in gaining the powers they made a condition of coalition (Labour, we recall didn’t want it…) are having trouble finding their identity; whereas Labour, having been forced into going in directions they were unsure of, and forced out of power in London, are on the up. Go figure.
Hmmm, that fake Twitter story was rather convenient for a piece that would have been booked to appear on this site sometime in advance. I would not be surprised if this piece was signed, sealed, if not delivered to Wales Home, before the fake Plaid Twitter account story broke given where the finger of suspicion is pointing on that one.
As for the rest of the article, what a load of garbage? It is rich, bordering on parody, for Labour to be accusing anyone of shifting to the right given their direction of travel in the last two decades or more. This piece, coming from a member of a political party that abolished the 10p income tax rate, climbed into bed with one of the most right-wing governments in American history to engage in an illegal war, presided over a widening of the gap between rich and poor and made UK THE place to be for billionaires from all over the world looking for a place to live without any or very little tax obligations.
Go on Labour, take a bow.
Great article. Whether or not it was penned with foreknowledge of the John Dixon resignation and the “Plaid prefer Carwyn to Ieuan” poll, it could hardly have been more timely. Not to mention the Tory/Plaid sources flirting in today’s Western Mail. Interesting times ahead.
Hi Caffeine Addict.
Sorry to disappoint, but this piece was received after the Plaid conference.
Some of our pieces (Mr Willy Nilly’s, for example and my recent piece on Shanghai) are not time sensitive so we schedule those in advance, others, such as this, respond to events, so it’s right that we try and run then as soon as we can.
Thanks for your comments.
David Jones
Co-Editor
It’s to be expected that this article has ruffled the feathers of irate Plaid supporters – just read the majority of comments posted on here. I’m sure that was a large part of the author’s intention.
However, the real issue that this article only tangentially mentions is that Plaid are probably going to find themselves in an extremely difficult position during the upcoming Assembly elections.
They’ve been squeezed out as a protest party, firstly by Carwyn Jones’ explicit (and politically clever) strategy of moving Labour’s tanks back onto Plaid’s lawn – you can debate the morality and philosophical consistency of said strategy ad nauseum, but sometimes politics requires brazen manoeuvring of this sort. Secondly, they have been further squeezed by developments at a UK level – admittedly beyond their control but set to impact on their electoral fortunes nonetheless.
Plaid will also find it difficult to attack Labour’s record in the Welsh Government over the past four years – especially with regard to the economy, education and nation-building (which seems to have been their main strategy so far), given that they have been party to key decisions and seem to have let their larger partners steal their thunder in taking credit for the referendum result. Such are the perils of being the smaller party in coalition…
Still, five weeks is a very long time in politics – but if I was a betting man (and I’m most certainly not), I’d be putting money down on Plaid’s tally of seats being nearer to 10 than 15 this time around, with the party certainly not gaining any new seats.
Alex, I think you’re right about the difficulty Plaid are going to have in the election and after, but it’s perfectly legitimate to agree with that analysis while also seeing that the article in question is itself rubbish.
I don’t think that questioning its factual accuracy or condemning its intellectual dishonesty (or indeed its amnesia in relation to Labour’s recent policies and record…) is a sign of being a tribalist Plaid-ite. I’m sure that if I was still a Labour supporter I’d see the flaws in the article, though I’d perhaps see the merits in riling my opponents. I’d also have the grace, I should hope, to admit that riling opponents was its sole purpose, and that it was devoid of informational or constructive value beyond that…
Plaid Cymru moving to the right? Are you kidding me?! Most of the Plaid people I speak to think the party has shifted more to the left since devolution.
Terrible article.
David – you misunderstand.
I said I would not be surprised if the piece “was signed, sealed, if NOT DELIVERED to Wales Home” before the fake Twitter story broke.
Let me therefore make it clear that I am not accusing Wales Home of sitting on this piece since then. I am, however, saying I would not be surprised if Labour had this in stock since the beginning of last week and before the fake Twitter story broke. Nobody seriously believes the person behind it is a disgruntled Plaid Cymru supporter.
Anyway, back to the article. Are we now going to see Labour ruling out a coalition with the Liberal Democrats given their sanctioning of every single cut that has been made so far in Westminster?
I don’t wish to wade into the row about SEJ’s critique, although as a co-editor of this site, we would not have run a piece designed exclusively to rile an opponent. Judging by the neuralgia being exhibited by the many Plaid supporters it also looks as if there is perhaps more to what she wrote than that. It’s also notable that few have challenged the basic premise that Plaid is in a spot of bother.
From my distant perch, it does not seem as if Plaid is in crisis (in fact, I wrote a piece rebutting that very idea). It does, however, seem as though it will face a tricky election. I’m not sure that many, or indeed any, of the factors behind this are of Plaid’s own making and the most important – namely that most people still regard the Assembly as a second-order election – is beyond’s anyone’s control.
I suggest the Plaid readers of this site direct their rage at the voters who, after 10 years of devolution, are still content to cast their vote very largely on the basis of the UK political landscape and for whom the raison d’etre of Plaid Cymru – independence – remains as deeply unpopular as it has ever been. Until one or both of these things change, Plaid’s electoral fortunes will probably continue to ebb and flow to a pattern largely beyond its control.
Adam – just because so many of Susan’s point have been rebutted by so many people, does not mean “there is more to what she wrote than that.”
It simply means she is wrong and needs correcting.
This article is the best I have read for years. very funny and deeply revealing of the mentality of the current Labour party.Really enjoyed reading it.
Plaid moving to the right? if only:)
I would love to see Plaid saying yes lets have regional pay for teachers and we will pay you more if you drive up standards and not if you keep conming up with excuses.
It wont happen though.
Yes we will face a difficult election, the first one after entering government was bound to be, but that does not mean we will have a poor result and we may even make significant gains.
As for the “raison d’etre” of Plaid being Independence please dont make me laugh. Plaid exists to ensure the protection and development of Welsh heritage(in all its forms not just the language) and to raise the standard of living and quality of life for the people of Wales. These aims cannot be achieved without self government of one sort or another and currently it is difficult to see any model other than independence delivering.However independence is a means to an end not an end in itself.
Good article. You are certainly rattled the nat’s cages. Adam is exactly right, the reaction from Plaid supporters only goes to show that this article is hitting a nerve, or two.
The nationalists refusal to work with the Tories, if anything, shows that the only way to keep the Conservatives out of the Welsh Assembly government is to vote Labour.
And maybe Plaid should look at themselves for “negative” politics, given attacks on Leighton Andrews, and Andrew Davies. Aswell as comments by Helen Mary Jones.
I’m slightly unclear about the ‘Valleys currency’ thing. I mean, it sounds OK, but how much will it actually benefit people’s lives?
Could it be that the MP for Clwyd South has been bounced into attacking Plaid (all misleading and inaccurate) because Labour are feeling threatened by Plaid in her constituency?
CapM said all that needed to be said about this article:
“In addition I find the method of expressing concern (faux concern) for the fortunes of political rivals in order to get one’s points across rather insulting to the intelligence”
Awful article.
Can we have the various parties’ vision, general positioning, specific policy proposals, and delivery/funding options articulated and explored in future articles ahead of the Assembly election please…?
“As for the “raison d’etre” of Plaid being Independence please dont make me laugh.”
As I recall, independence – or something very similar to it in terminology – is the very first of Plaid’s aims.
I am sorry, but the Editors, friends of mine included, need to ask themselves where they want this website to go.
I can remember at the start of this website, when things were about proper articles. The things above and beyond attack blog crap with little research.
Honestly, if any editor can say this article’s tone is what they wanted from Wales Home, then I will call them a liar to their face.
Merely saying ‘well look at the response’ is just the same hit chasing nonsense I hoped would die with the end of Willy Nilly.
This article seriously suggests that Plaid have shifted rightwards for having a conference on the same date as a later booked march (which I know a fair number of Plaid members attended by the way). As all you editors say ‘you need to stand that up’.
If this is the standard of the editing in letting this through, then I wonder whether this site has failed in it’s intention.
A new low for this website.
It doesn’t matter if they move right, left, up, down, spin clockwise, or anti clockwise, they will get around 15 to 20% of the vote.
Albeit – down on last time – but the core support is still solid.
Marcus
None of the editors has justified the inclusion of this piece on the basis of the response it has attracted. I noted that the response indicated that it perhaps raised points beyond a mere desire to rile. That’s not the same thing at all.
What we wanted when we started this site remains the same today: a platform where a variety of views are aired and argued. Alas, each time we publish a piece from a someone attacking Plaid we get the same complaints of lowered standards and hidden agendas. If the same people made those criticisms when other, similar, pieces from Plaid figures attacking other parties were published they might be credible. Since that never happens, I conclude that what I have read today is so much partisan comment dressed up as concern for the editorial standards of WalesHome.
I think everyone needs to calm down a little. Of course, I don’t agree with Susan’s analysis but let’s remain rational. What of any of this will travel outside the Bubble? The election won’t be won or lost on the strength of this piece.
At this time, post referendum, it’s quite natural that Welsh parties ask some searching questions of themselves. Usually delicate matters, this process has been thrown into an election furnace in which two of the contenders have had to play nicey-nicey for far longer than either of them would have preferred. And it is likely that on sites like this you’ll see some of the not-so-amicable divorce.
Of course I don’t agree with Susan’s analysis, but I’ll defend to the death her right to say it … particularly as I’ll be writing something in a similar vein about Labour for WalesHome next week.
Adam I am not sure there are any pieces on this blog from Plaid figures, or any other party, attacking opposition with quite as poor research or rationale.
I mean really? Plaid has gone to the right because a cuts rally was organised the same time as their pre-arranged conference?
I also have to agree with Caffeine Addict in that the fact that it has inspired so many people to highlight the inconsistencies and inaccuracies doesn’t mean that “there is more to what she wrote than that.” I think it is just a reflection of how poorly written and how weak the substance is.
Personally after the recent NO campaign I’ve had a bellyfull of negative politicing.
“Alas, each time we publish a piece from a someone attacking Plaid we get the same complaints of lowered standards and hidden agendas. If the same people made those criticisms when other, similar, pieces from Plaid figures attacking other parties were published they might be credible. Since that never happens, I conclude that what I have read today is so much partisan comment dressed up as concern for the editorial standards of WalesHome.”
Adam hits the nail on the head here – this faux indignant rage really is a bit much. HMJ is allowed to launch her broadside at the weekend – that’s just politics – but if the flak travels the other way, it’s somehow outrageous. I happen to disagree with HMJ and agree with Susan, but accept that others will differ.
If you disagree with the points the author makes, fair enough, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have the right to say what she thinks – or that WH are somehow beyond the pale from running the piece. Grow up and fight back, say how and why you think she’s wrong rather than snivelling and whinging about the fact that she’s being nasty to you. For pity’s sake.
Small point of correction, local currencies are not news, they work very successfully else where and have done for about 20 years. I seem to remember a very successful scheme in south Birmingham where the currency was Hearts… Worked extremely well. Can help mutual help and build community solidarity. Nothing strange our unusual. Hardly right wing.
“Adam hits the nail on the head here – this faux indignant rage really is a bit much. HMJ is allowed to launch her broadside at the weekend – that’s just politics – but if the flak travels the other way, it’s somehow outrageous.”
Anthony- it’s about substance, surely? HMJ made that claim and listed the Iraq war, deregulation of the economy, and wealth inequality (things that could be defended but that really happened) as her subjective evidence, things that are fair game for debate. SEJ’s claim listed Plaid ‘deliberately’ holding Spring Conference on the 26th March as her evidence. I liked reading this piece and commenting on it, no outrage or complaints from me- it’s just the two individuals (HMJ and SEJ) appear rightly or wrongly, from their own writings, to be in two completely different leagues when it comes to putting across an argument. HMJ’s argument could perhaps be rebuffed by Labour supporters, but SEJ’s argument is based on things that are not real or material, myths and rumours.
Duncan’s piece will provoke comments too- but i’m almost certain his piece won’t have the factual errors that SEJ has written.
HMJ’s attack was policy based. Specifically on how Labour have failed to deliver. It sighted irrespirable evidence such as an FOI that showed the party have refused to do anything on funding reform whilst in government.
SEJ’s attack is based on the fact that Plaid’s conference was organised the same time as a London rally (which was organised after the conference) and her own failure to understand PFI.
The very fact she doesn’t know the difference between DJDavies and DJWilliams should tell you how poor this article is.
Personally, whilst the sort of negative campaigning that Labour has indulged in already for this campaign, isn’t what I support I agree that everyone has the right to follow that path if they so choose. However surely you have to have some credibility in your arguments. I don’t criticise SEJ because it is aimed at Plaid Cymru or for the tone but just the lazy and completely, and no doubt deliberately so as I refuse to believe she is this ill-informed, misleading nature of the piece.
Good grief. You’d think that there was an election on!
“Grow up and fight back, say how and why you think she’s wrong rather than snivelling and whinging about the fact that she’s being nasty to you. For pity’s sake.”
Anthony – I think that’s exactly what people have been doing – pointing out why she’s wrong. I haven;t seen you or any of her defenders point out why she might be right – in other words how a scheduled party conference that ‘clashes’ with protests arranged months later (did SEJ actually go them – SEJ – help us out here…) is ‘right wing’, why the valleys scheme is ‘right wing’, or why differential pay levels are ‘right wing’. As for the the DJ Williams/DJ Davies thing, she’s been amply corrected on that too, so you can’t accuse people of not correcting her. I’d also like a little less amnesia re PFI form Labour apparatchiks. Perhaps one can accuse you of defending her badly…
I also think it’s profoundly unhealthy and troll-like to claim that because people object the author must have ‘hit a nerve’ as the troll-mantra goes. I imagine that lies hit nerves as hard as truths – that’s what nerves are for: to react. One can provoke a reaction by lying and smearing and rewriting history as much as by telling unpalatable, hard-hitting truths.
The point being made here – and it’s not a tribal one – is that any article ought to include a fair proportion of accuracy, and be intended, in part at least, as a useful contribution to the debate it claims to add to. This does neither.
This doesn’t do that – can we have a defence of it that doesn’t go through the ‘we must have hit a nerve’ routine?
John Dixon would make an ideal Labour candidate. He should have joined Labour months ago. There’s a remarkably strong and united Labour team standing this year. It really is a pity John is not among them.
“I also think it’s profoundly unhealthy and troll-like to claim that because people object the author must have ‘hit a nerve’”
As a general point, I completely support Partrick on this. I’d like to see this particular defence banned on WalesHome. It’s lazy, tedious and infantile.
More specifically, a number of people (Luke, Patrick and others) have challenged both the factual basis of the piece, and its main argument of Plaid drifting to the right. This is all absolutely proper and healthy and exactly what these comments sections exist for.
My objections are to those who, in essence, imagine that the editorial team will respond to suggestions that because we have published an article with which they disagree and/or do not like, we have violated some unspecified covenant with the readers. We are independent, not impartial; publishing partisan pieces – from all perspectives – is absolutely part of this site’s ethos, so get used to it.
Having watched as a disinterested party, the outbreak of civil war between Labour and Plaid, it is perhaps worth considering comparing the degrees of success of SNP and Plaid.
As I see it, the SNP whilst constitutionally is against a formal coalition with the Conseervatives at national level, but not at local level, it has in fact frequently worked with them at the Scottish Parliament on a case by case basis when either or both LD and Labour support was lacking for a particular measure.
The SNP does not so avowedly proclaim itself as left-wing as Plaid and so has had electroal success agiants all parties whilst Plaid and Labour have in places been fishing very much in the same pool.
Who knows, many IWJ and Nick Bourne may yet experience a “coup de foudre” if, and it could be a big if, both are re-elected.
The triple whammy of the last forty-eight hours of negative reports on education (“a downward spiral”)
the economy (“lags behind the rest of the UK”) and children in care (“44% increase in 10 years”)must bring into question both the competence and capability of the current and previous administrations.
Surely it is time, for the Assembly to stop defending an acknowledged poor performance in the education of our children (for many a once-off opportunity) and pull together to establish an education systems whose only target is the pursuit of excellence for our children whatever their capabilities.
I agree completely with Adam’s last posting, particularly the bit where he backs up Patrick’s point. It is just shame he contradicted this view earlier by writing:
“I don’t wish to wade into the row about SEJ’s critique, although as a co-editor of this site, we would not have run a piece designed exclusively to rile an opponent. Judging by the neuralgia being exhibited by the many Plaid supporters it also looks as if there is perhaps more to what she wrote than that.”
Anyway, I’m sick of writing about this piece. You’ve had your 15 minutes Susan.
I’ve explained myself on this point, Caffeine Addict. If you can’t understand, you perhaps shouldn’t post.
How about a ‘Harry Hill’ style fight to sort this out?
Luke – That would be one way of sorting out who runs Labour in Wales.
“I like Carwyn, and I like Peter (it hurt typing that) but who is better? There is only one way to find out…..FIGHT!!”
…and we could end it with a badger parade, which would keep some of our politicians happy (if not Elin Jones or the farmers). Damnit, even my attempt to end the argument on a note of fun and unity is falling apart.
“How about a ‘Harry Hill’ style fight to sort this out?”
I like this, will happily fight any of you, even for charity.