A question of clout
Bubble — By Jeff Jones on March 7, 2011 7:00 am
Jabbing, hooking, ducking and weaving - but do the blows still land properly?
OVER the past few months, a number of commentators have posed the question of “How can Wales increase its political clout?”
For 150 years, no one would have dreamt of asking this question as Welsh politicians made their mark on the Westminster scene. After all three Prime Ministers have represented Welsh constituencies including possibly the most interesting if not the greatest Prime Minister of the 20th Century, Lloyd George. A Welshman, Nye Bevan had been responsible for one of the most important achievements of the 20th century, the NHS. Someone born in Wales had led even the Conservatives who for much of the 150 years were seen by many as the enemy of everything Welsh political tradition stood for. Yet when the Labour opposition came to elect the new Shadow cabinet last year not one Welsh MP could make the cut. What a contrast, as it was pointed out, from the days of the governments of Harold Wilson when 20 Welsh men and women served as government ministers.
What has gone wrong? For much of the period from 1868 to the 1980s Wales it could be argued was in the frontline of the issues that shaped British political debate. In the period up to the First World War, politics for many voters was dominated by the struggle of nonconformity for equality. Wales and Welsh politicians were in the forefront of that conflict between the “beerage and the peerage”. As the Apostle of Peace, Henry Richard, the MP for Merthyr Tydfil, argued: ‘The Nonconformists are the people of Wales, the people of Wales are Nonconformists.”
With the changes in society brought about by the Industrial Revolution and the First World War transforming UK politics Wales again was in the vanguard of the new fight between Labour and capital, which now dominated UK politics. As nonconformity declined as a political force, the new Labour Party emerged as the heir to the Welsh radicalism. For much of the 20th Century Welshmen and Welsh women had no doubts where they would find the levers of power. It was there in the Parliament by the Thames or in the headquarters of the major trade unions such as the NUM’s HQ in Euston Road. In this world, no one doubted the clout of Wales – particularly when there was a Labour government, or when one of the major unions was involved in industrial conflict.
All of this began to change in the 1960s as the industries which had dominated much of what one commentator in the early 20th Century described as “American Wales” went into decline. A decline accelerated by the policies of the Thatcher government and the failure of the trade union movement, notably during the Miners Strike, to defeat those policies. Industrial defeat was followed by the decline of political influence, masked – it could be argued – by the election of a Welsh MP Neil Kinnock as the leader of the Labour Party. In a world where the old certainties no longer existed, the key political battlegrounds were no longer in the old industrial areas. The key to political success lies in the marginal seats and winning over the small number of voters who decide elections in modern day UK politics.
Unfortunately, for Wales most of those seats exist in the South and Midlands of England. For much of the 20th Century, no left of centre government could win without the support of Wales and Scotland. Even in the famous elections of 1910, it is often forgotten that the Tories won in England. The elections in the past 20 years show that this is no longer the case. The key to success was now to win the support of Mondeo Man or Worcester Woman in Middle England. The present UK Coalition, it could be argued, shows that to gain a majority in the UK Parliament you don’t really need the Celtic fringes.
Some might claim that the advent of devolution and the results of last year’s election show that any clout that Wales had in UK has gone forever. An IPPR study has shown that in the present FPTP system the people who count are the 115,000 or so floating voters in the English marginals. In the world of the focus group they and the over 55s are the voters to court, not an unemployed person in their twenties who lives in a traditional Valleys constituency. With just 30 MPs at the next election, Wales some might argue can be safely forgotten about.
What are the possible solutions to this political marginalisation of a region which once played such an important part in UK politics? If you are a nationalist, the solution – independence within the EU – is obvious. In their eyes, UK politicians and their parties will never produce policies for a nation that is so different from the rest of the UK. The only problem with this view of the future is that all the opinion polls and more importantly the actual polls show that the chances of the majority of Welsh voters supporting this solution are virtually nil. If there is a slippery slope to independence then no one at the moment is sliding down it.
For the “Federalists” the solution is more powers for the Assembly starting with the Yes vote on March 3 which will deliver full lawmaking in the 20 devolved areas. This will really show Westminster that Wales cannot be ignored. Wales will now be on a par with Scotland and Northern Ireland when it comes to dealing with whoever is in power in Westminster. It will be the first step towards reform of Barnett and the end of the “lack of respect” agenda which since May has seen Wales lose major infrastructure projects and receive less money than either Northern Ireland or Scotland.
The fact that even with the Yes vote Wales will not have the same powers as the other devolved administrations, or that the extra money is as the IFS shows due to the failure to apply the Barnett Formula properly, is irrelevant to those who support this argument. A Yes vote will force people to listen to the concerns of Wales. No longer will Scotland get £400 million more and Northern Ireland £150 million as they did in this year’s settlement from the UK government. A Yes vote will also deliver in this scenario the holy grail of full Barnett reform and the extra magical £300 million a year, which will transform Wales.
But what will happen now we know the turnout was little more than a third of the electorate? Such a result, some might argue, could even lead to the increased marginalisation of Wales. Why worry about a Wales where the majority of voters couldn’t even be bothered to vote in the referendum and which will have only 30 MPs in the political institution that really matters, namely the UK Parliament? This could easily become the reaction of many in both the major political parties which will still dominate UK politics after March 3.
If you believe in personality politics, then one possible solution might be to directly elect the First Minister. As the differences between the major parties have declined, personality could be the key to success and real clout in politics. For many voters the last election boiled down to a contest between the three party leaders. Last weekend’s Labour conference, with its giant poster of the First Minister, suggests that in May a key element in Labour’s strategy will be the claim that their leader is better able to “stand up for Wales” than other party leaders.
Just imagine the interest if in May we were all able to directly elect the First Minister as Americans elect their state governors. Any politician elected under that sort of system would really have a mandate to speak for Wales. Look at the way in which a directly-elected mayor has transformed the political influence of London. It might be easy for the Department for Transport to ignore Welsh politicians when it comes to electrification of the GWR. But, as Andrew Adonis, the former Labour Transport Minister, pointed out before Christmas, without Ken Livingstone and Boris Johnson there would be no CrossRail. As a political anorak, I would love to see a contest between Carwyn Jones, Jonathan Morgan, Kirsty Williams and Adam Price. But as a realist, I know that such a proposal would probably cause apoplexy among the present political elite.
But what if Welsh politics was transformed not by concentrating on the Assembly but by trying to maximise the effectiveness and therefore political clout of the 30 MPs after 2015? Perhaps we should look both to Welsh politics before 1914 and to Europe. Before 1914, the new confident Welsh political class dominated by the Liberals established the Welsh Parliamentary Party. Effectively it was a Welsh Liberal party in Parliament. Its aim was to ensure that the issues that Welsh Nonconformists felt were important such as temperance, education, land reform and disestablishment became part of the national Liberal Programme as they did in 1891. When a Liberal government failed to deliver many of the Welsh Liberals in 1895 refused to support the government and it was defeated.
What if Labour morphed into a 21st Century version of the pre 1914 Welsh Liberals? Some commentators often talk of something called “Welsh Labour” when in reality no such political organisation exists as was clearly shown when the UK Leader of the Labour Party came to the Welsh conference and spoke about the NHS in England. One solution might be a federal Labour Party made up of constituent parties representing not just the devolved administrations but also the regions of England with an NEC consisting of the leaders of the federal parties.
Another possible solution could see the emergence of a separate Welsh Labour Party along the lines of the Bavarian CSU, a conservative right wing party closely associated with the CDU at a national level in Germany. It is, however, a separate party, which in the early 1950s took the decision to put Bavaria first. As a result, its brightest politicians stay in Munich to develop policies to increase the prosperity of Bavarians who have always seen themselves as different from other Germans.
Both the above developments could probably see a different dynamic develop in the relationship between left-of-centre politicians from Wales who believe in the UK and the rest of the UK. With the right leadership, it could increase Welsh influence within or on one of the main UK parties. It could even lead to a major change in UK politics where a politician who has been a successful minister at the devolved level might be seen as a future UK Prime Minister or cabinet member because of their track record in delivering policy improvements . The key to political success at a national level in many European countries and even in the States is often a successful political career at a regional level. Most German Chancellors have been the Minister-President of a Lander, while Bill Clinton had at least been Governor of Arkansas. Both Tony Blair and David Cameron on the other hand hadn’t run anything before they became Prime Minister.
The final possible solution is probably the most radical in the British context, although it is quite common in some parts of Europe. This is the creation of a new regional political party which would be committed to staying in the UK but whose main aim would be to get the best deal for Wales. Its model would be parties such as the moderate Catalan parties. The aim would be to win control of the Assembly and a majority of the UK Parliamentary seats. Its tactics would be to exploit any situation where any of the major UK parties failed to win a majority in the UK Parliament. It would judge policies from those parties on how they would benefit Wales even if in ideological terms it was closer to some parties than others. If such a party existed today, it might perhaps argue that its support can only be bought if whichever party wanted to form a government in Westminster promised to start constructing the electrification of the GWR.
In many ways British politics at the start of the 21st Century is entering a period of change as great perhaps as the one that occurred over 100 years ago. The creation of the UK Coalition last year shows that no one can really predict where politics in the UK or Wales will be in 50 years time. But what happened on March 3 will not settle the debate about how Welsh clout is increased in a world of where the certainties which dominated politics in the 20th Century are now gone forever.
Tags: Assembly, Politics, Prime Minister, referendum, Wales
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33 Comments
Fascinating article Jeff. I’m going to confine myself to one comment and one question at this stage.
I’m not sure that working on maximising the influence of the Welsh MPs at Westminster is a strategy to pursue to the exclusion of the others here, surely more in tandem with some of the others? The last 10 months have seemingly seen a much greater coming together (of MPs and AMs) than in much of the past 10 years and that surely needs building upon, probably with more formal processes (probably established by the parties themselves to start with?)for dialogue on issues of mutual concern (welfare reform is an obvious one).
My question is who is the third PM from a Welsh constituency after Lloyd George & Callaghan?
Ramsay McDonald.
“also the regions of England” – what regions would they be then? Seeing as the North of England gave regionalisation the thumbs down and no one else has been asked!
Increasing Welsh clout at the UK level at a time when Wales has just voted for increased powers merely means that there will be more Welsh MP’s interfering with domestic legislation for England only.
Many of us would say that there are already far too many Welsh MP’s in the UK Parliament with too little to do except to interfere in the politics of a nation which they do not represent and to whom they are not accountable. Very democratic I must say!
So here’s another scenario for you to contemplate – there arises an English National Party that campaigns on the establishment of an English Parliament in a federated UK; supported by over 60% of the English people (polls showing this is a realistic number)who then dismantle the Barnett Formula, turf the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish out of the now devolved English Parliament – and there you are; A self supporting Welsh Assembly who are free to spend whatever it is they can raise.
Now you might not like that scenario but there are more and more English people who certainly do.
Ben, Ramsay Macdonald was the MP for Aberavon in the 1920s.For the 1929 election he moved to Seaham Harbour in County Durham where replaced Sidney Webb. In MacDonald’s 1924 cabinet he included his near neighbour and MP for Ogmore the ‘the Lord of Maesteg’ Vernon Hartshorn who was appointed Postmaster General. Hartshorn became the first miner to sit in a UK cabinet. He is buried in Llangynwyd near Maesteg. When he died the Daily Worker carried the front page headline’Death of a Rat’. It was written by another Maesteg man, Idris Cox who was the editor of the Daily Worker.
Yes, and why doesn’t someone publish, online if need be, Idris Cox’s autobiography? I haven’t read it but can anyone imagine its not being interesting?
Some thought-provoking ideas!
If I may bring up Tony Blair and the f****** Welsh for a moment, what struck me about this episode was that Lance Price, a senior communications officer in the Labour Party, thought nothing of publishing such an anecdote while Blair was still in office and still having to attend the Wales Labour Party conference. Had Price forgotten that, or was it entirely irrelevant in his view? It seems to me that that is as good an illustration as you can get of loss of Welsh clout within the Labour Party: not Blair’s alleged foul-mouthed tirade but that it should be deemed safe to publish.
Another little incident comes to mind. During the European election television coverage I can recall the look of astonishment on the face of Steve Richards of the Independent on hearing that the Conservatives had topped the poll (just) in Wales. While Polly Toynbee bemoaned the loss of the ‘cradle of the British Labour Party’, Richards could find nothing to say. The London media just don’t have a much of a narrative for Welsh politics if it doesn’t fit into some stereotype or other. Does that account, in part, for the virtual non-reporting of the Welsh referendum?
The Guardian, fair play, provided some coverage and an editorial but on Friday declared (in a sub-heading) that we had moved one step closer to independence. Does anyone know if there are any Pleidwyr or True Walians working as subs on the Guardian? Or is that the only ‘neat’ narrative that came to mind?
“This is the creation of a new regional political party which would be committed to staying in the UK but whose main aim would be to get the best deal for Wales. Its model would be parties such as the moderate Catalan parties. The aim would be to win control of the Assembly and a majority of the UK Parliamentary seats.”
Of course, creating a new party isn’t the only way of getting to that point. It’s equally conceivable that an existing party could simply change to fill that role.
A truly superb article from Jeff Jones. I like the bit where he writes that a First Minister direct election… would probably cause apoplexy among the present political elite..
A bit more more apoplexy is what we need if the electorate is going to engage again in politics.
“The only problem with this view of the future is that all the opinion polls and more importantly the actual polls show that the chances of the majority of Welsh voters supporting this solution are virtually nil. If there is a slippery slope to independence then no one at the moment is sliding down it.”
I enjoyed this argument, some real food for thought. But I do take issue with this.
To merely take a snapshot of opinion about independence, without any worthwhile assessment of direction of travel seems a deliberate attempt to cloud the issue. In a lot of polling nearly 2/3 of people believe Wales should have the same powers as Scotland – that 66% would comfortably win another referendum to deliver Wales said powers.
Now, unlike some, I don’t take anything as a given on how change will impact on people’s views on devolution. But is it that difficult to at least entertain the idea that independence’s support may grow as the options for Wales’ future gets smaller?
At the moment there is 4-5 choices for voters, if you continue to include abolishment. Surely you can foresee a potential change in the figure who would choose independence if we faced a Scottish style parliament – status quo, devolution max, independence. Bear in mind Devolution Max is being brought in by the Unionist parties in Westminster, despite having a nationalist Government in Scotland.
I don’t say it is a given that support for independence will rise (although I would be confident it would), but surely it is naive to believe that the support for far further powers is an affront to the idea that independence will stay at 10%.
Realistically and in no uncertain terms, abolishing the Assembly has been buried with this vote. You now have a debate that means we either move towards Scotland (or a version of) or the status quo. Add into this that the ConDems seem as least superficially are keen to give us more powers (almost to ‘teach us a lesson/get them off ‘England’s payroll’ etc) and you get the feeling that the “only 10% support independence” canard is far less of a killer blow than people like Jeff would have you believe.
BTW – really enjoyed the article.
“it is naive to believe that the support for far further powers is an affront to the idea that independence will stay at 10%.”
10%? The last poll I saw support for independence was at 6%.
I cannot remember a single reputable measure of Welsh public opinion in over 15 years of following Welsh politics in which independence was other than the least popular option. Those in favour of abolishing the Assembly often outnumber those who say they want independence by a margin of two to one. If any option is to be taken off the table in this discussion, it ought to be independence.
Does this mean independence will never happen, or that people should not agitate or aspire toward it? Not a bit of it. In fact, I think the debate has fundamentally flipped in the last 20 or so years from “why” to “why not”. The factors that used to hold back the idea of Welsh independence are nearly all gone, from the spectre of borders between England and Wales (a free EU put paid to that) to an existential threat (the fall of the Berlin Wall ended that) to the general ignorance of other cultures and smaller countries (low-cost airlines and the internet did for that). There has never been any question in my mind that Wales could be independent, and survive ok as an independent state. She has all the prerequisites: infrastructure, civic institutions, the rule of law etc to make an easy transition from the status quo.
So, given all this, the question is: why don’t people want it, and why will they choose virtually any option other than it? A lot of people still don’t believe that Wales could be viable as an independent state. But beyond that, I suspect that people don’t believe it accords with any notion of modernity they possess. Look around the world and the recent past at least is one of unhappy break-ups stimulated by rather ugly phenomena: ethnic strife, linguistic discord, tyrannical overthrow. In fact, there are some episodes that don’t fit into this mould but, predictably, these don’t gain popular attention. I suspect that people are against independence because they think they’d end up in some impoverished failed state. But I suspect that they also think that choosing such a course would mean something atavistic. I disagree with them on the first point, but agree on the latter.
Adam,
I can’t find the ICM poll that the BBC released on the day of the vote, but here’s a link to a Western Mail story about it. It gives a breakdown of Welsh electorate attitudes:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/03/04/wales-referendum-many-people-felt-they-didn-t-have-enough-information-91466-28277166/
Independence, devolution, Home Rule, it’s all about self-government, and the referendum if anything shows that Wales has swung from being overwhelmingly against it in 1979 to being overwhelmingly for it in 2011. The devolution process will doubtless continue, without the need for referenda to add to the Bay’s devolved powers and without any substantial changes to our constitution. Hardly surprising then that support for independence, such as it is, seems to be on the wane. Apart from self-government, there is the question of Wales’ position within the EU, along with that of other EU regions and nations that do not possess member-state status. As devolution progresses both the question of clout and the pro-independence argument may well eventually focus more on the relationship between Cardiff and Brussels than the relationship between the Bay and Westminster.
Interesting and generous comments Adam.
“I cannot remember a single reputable measure of Welsh public opinion in over 15 years of following Welsh politics in which independence was other than the least popular option.”
Fair enough – but I suppose it currently is seen as the most distant, the one that cannot possibly happen with at least one if not more referenda. Given Plaid has become a devolutionist party, the option of ‘independence now’ is surely one that no one seriously considers an option.
I also think the term independence is simply not fit for the devolutionist political debate. I know Plaid have found a definition, but it’s not a definition that I believe the public have grasped fully. I always used to say I believed in self governance for Wales throughout my political life, but it can potentially leave it down to largely a semantic discussion.
I admit it, I had to google “atavistic”. Interesting, given the fair mindedness of your comments I am not inclined to really challenge it. Other than a new nation can be thoroughly modern and it can even be seen as a bulwark against the globalised clone country effect we have.
I suppose to conclude I think it does the debate a disservice to paint the current figure about independence as proof of anything, particularly when a clear majority want more powers than we have today. It reminds of Crosland’s ‘How much equality?’ idea…in that ‘How much devolution?’ is currently answered by ‘more than we have today’.
I’ve always considered the amount in favour of independence are not as important as the number who are indifferent on the subject, given the majority starting position for the unionists using tired old arguments and an enthusiastic independance movement these indifferent can be easily lead to the slippery slope.
Well those old boxing gloves frighten me just looking at them. Frackled old leather abrading against the face, moveable thumb and sharp old lace tied against the wristbone.
In terms of ‘Political clout’ the natural argument would be a thriving economy. I’m convinced Wales will get this.
MP’s are very important to Wales . Welsh MP’s must really push Welsh affairs in debate. Be controverisal if necessary to get the media interested. Northern Irish MP’s almost have a one track mind when talking in Parliament. It’s always about them. Welsh MP’s to relate Welsh Affairs to UK .
Personality politics? I think welsh voters are far too smart for any of that carry on.
‘ Why worry about a Wales where the majority of voters couldn’t even be bothered to vote in the referendum ‘ No i disagree. Many could not make up their minds (me) and i can bring you to a dozen or more who had difficulty getting to the polling booth. The polling booth’s in rural areas are based on the old Anglican parish boundaries. They are not based on any sense of logic. For instance to vote at the polling booth which is geographically nearer does not come into it.
‘“How can Wales increase its political clout?” For 150 years, no one would have dreamt of asking this question’
You’re joking, right?
That question was pretty damn central to discussions in the welsh parliamentary liberal party in the 1880s and 90s, at the time of Tryweryn, in the leadup to the establishment of the Welsh Office, etc. etc.
I’m sure the rest of the article is very interesting, but before reading it I need to pick my jaw off the floor after such a ridiculous opening gambit.
I don’t see how Wales can increase its political clout unless it gets a high degree of autonomy within the United Kingdom or independence within the EU.
The population of Wales is 3 million. The United Kingdom has something like 61 million people. The mathematics are against Wales. England has about 52 million people with the population increasing faster than Wales, so if anything things will get worse for Wales. Although Scotland is seeing a population decline so their influence which has always been higher than Wales may diminish somewhat.
“The population of Wales is 3 million. The United Kingdom has something like 61 million people. The mathematics are against Wales”
By that logic you may as well push for withdrawal from the EU. Its population is 500 million.
Adam
The mathematics are against Wales.
Have to support that – politically and economically.
The people of Wales give little support for nationalistic Political charades.
There were less yes votes in 2011 than in 1997.
80%+ ignored the referendum, which was hailed by all in the incestuous Political bubble as a great victory.
Economically Wales cannot sustain its current level of expenditure without outside support.
As for the EU – its intrusive, expensive, its accounts have never been accepted by the Auditors, and sets its legislative Authority above National Governments.
I thought Welsh politics was about recovering sovereignty to Wales!!!
Perhaps its all to do with the money!
Re last post @ 5:21
Correction; 80%+ should of course read 60%+
It’s not the 3million in 61 million or 500 million that provides the logic
Wales’s “voice” in the EU is channeled through the UK whilst similarly sized independent members of the EU speak out and up for themselves directly to the Commission and other members of the EU.
If the argument is that a small state in a large union cannot have its voice heard then there is no logic in Wales becoming a member of the EU.
If, however, the argument is that a small state can have its voice heard in a large union then you cannot argue that the UK is bad for Wales by dint of the numbers alone.
CaptM, who or what is “Wales voice”?
Surely not the Assembly which has little credible support (25% of the population at best) here in Wales.
Adam, Your comment gets to the heart of the EU issue, can a small State, manage to influence the burgoening EU rules, regulations, or even policy.
Apart from Germany, France, and Britain, how much influence do any of the smaller States have over what is ordained by the EU Commission in Brussels.
Its not whether its good or bad.
Its a question of how much freedom to make our own rules do we want to keep.
Llewelyn writes: “who or what is “Wales voice”? Surely not the Assembly which has little credible support (25% of the population at best) here in Wales.”
I would so very much have liked to see your face last Friday. You know nothing of credible support. In 1997 Wales sent you to Elba. In 2011 Wales sent you to St Helena. It’s over, mate, goodbye
Sorry Daran have to disagree – if you can loose the support of 35K of the voters from 1997, with some 80% of the electorate voting “NO” or abstaining, and still claim “credible support” you are deluded.
However;
Given the terms of engagement the “yes” vote carried the day.
Its democracy and we work to that – but it would be prudent for WAG to take care, and recognise the weakness of electoral support.
Lets see what the Assembly Elections bring.
Llewelyn
Can you tell me what the turnout was in the referendum to establish a parliament in Westminster?
Can you tell me what the turnout in Wales was when we granted Westminster legislative competence in a second referendum?
How does it compare to the turn out for last week’s referendum?
“with some 80% of the electorate voting “NO” or abstaining”
.
No mate. You don’t get to count abstentions as No votes.
Simon – not counting abstainers as “No” voters.
That is not my point.
I/we can only speculate why people didn’t vote.
If we take 1997 as the base, both “yes” and “no” lost support, people stayed away, the electorate appeared not to be enthused.
It seems there is little interest among the electorate for Welsh political machinations.
However as the Welsh Electorate turnout for the 2010 General Elections was 64.8% it can’t be argued there is no interest in UK politics in Wales.
I am wondering what impact all this will have on the Assembly Elections.
Now back to my earlier post;
Who has the Democratic Authority (the electoral support) to speak for Wales?
“It seems there is little interest among the electorate for Welsh political machinations.”
.
That is only your assumption. The fact is that those who abstain are not opposed to further devolution. The polls showing support for devolution had wide coverage in the media for the last four years, so if they were opposed they had plenty of warning and would have come out and voted against. They didn’t.
“It seems there is little interest among the electorate for Welsh political machinations”
Exactly. It was was “political machinations”, a constitutional matter which will have no direct consequence on our day-to-day lives – that may come after the elections in May, and even then it won’t affect our taxes, benefits or the overall level of public sector cuts.
“That is only your assumption. The fact is that those who abstain are not opposed to further devolution.”
You’ve spoken to them all, Simon?
To Adam Higgitt
“If the argument is that a small state in a large union cannot have its voice heard then there is no logic in Wales becoming a member of the EU.
If, however, the argument is that a small state can have its voice heard in a large union then you cannot argue that the UK is bad for Wales by dint of the numbers alone.”
No my arguament is that small member states of the EU can put their views to other members and the commission directly and without adulteration.
Whereas Wales or any other “region” of a large member state of the EU has it’s views filtered though the larger member state of which it is part.
With regards the UK, Wales’ member status of the UK is very much less automotous than the status of any small member state within the EU. Which means even though Wales is 3 mill out of 60 mill, rather than 3/500, Wales’s views unfortunately don’t count for that much within the UK.
CapM
For the third – and final – time, my retort was aimed at the notion that Welsh membership of the UK is axiomatically bad by dint of Wales’s numerical inferiority within such a union. If that is the case, the basis for being in a much larger union is even weaker.