‘The English don’t want us and the Welsh won’t have us’
Postcard — By Nick Ramsay AM on August 3, 2010 7:00 am
Monmouthshire has attracted visitors for centuries, as Benjamin Williams Leader was drawn to paint this picture of Tintern Abbey in 1889. But the county remains very much a part of Wales, says the local AM
SUMMER is always an important season for counties such as Monmouthshire, where the local economy relies so heavily upon the tourist trade. This week the local pubs and hotels are particularly busy, full of visitors to this year’s Eisteddfod just up the road in Ebbw Vale.
Blaenau Gwent is now an administrative area in its own right. But those of you familiar with history will know that until not so long ago this was part of the much wider county of old Monmouthshire, which stretched from the Gloucestershire border all the way to the banks of the River Rhymney in Cardiff.
The presence of the Eisteddfod in this corner of Wales has once again caused some to look at that long running debate about whether Monmouthshire is English or Welsh. This debate tends to focus now, understandably, on the modern, local authority boundaries of the county (chiefly because a debate about the old West Monmouthshire’s status would make no sense at all). You’ll be pleased to know I don’t intend to rehearse the endless, often tedious and by now well worn arguments not least because I don’t think it really gets us anywhere.
What I’m more interested in, as one of many people who are getting on with living their lives in this beautiful part of the world, is how people actually feel about their identity and their destiny, and for the most part this has nothing to do with long-winded academic and historical arguments, and more about practicalities in people’s day-to-day lives, as well as what it is that makes us feel passionate about where we come from.
It is pretty well known that the technical Monmouthshire was formally recognised as a part of Wales in a late night vote on the structure of local government in Wales in the House of Commons in the early 1970s. This had led some to say that the status of the county prior to that was English. But this is a misreading of the situation that too often fails to recognise the unique character of the county, a character that has developed over many centuries and entails a high regard for independence and freedom.
Growing up here is to grow up in a county with two faces – English-speaking but with an overwhelming number of Welsh place names. Of those English place names that are scattered around, a number can be traced back to a corruption of the original Welsh, an indication of the fact that there were many Welsh speakers in the county up until the 19th Century.
Of course, times change. Monmouthshire’s position meant that it would inevitably become the most anglicised of areas of Wales. The use of Welsh in the county has inexorably but predictably dwindled as a result. This has meant though that unlike other areas of Wales, Monmouthshire doesn’t have the language to help bat off questions of where it belongs. In many ways Monmouthshire is a fascinating example of what it is to be Welsh in the absence of spoken Welsh.
For a long time Monmouthshire was politically part of the Welsh Marches, originally governed by their own local lords. This has coloured many local attitudes to the area in the times since then. I remember my grandfather using a memorable expression when I was growing up and asking questions about the area I lived in – “the English don’t want us and the Welsh won’t have us” – or something along those lines. A rather jokey, typically Monmouthian way of looking at things, but one which gives an idea of the sort of mindset that the people of the border county had developed over time.
There may have been a long-standing pride about Monmouthshire’s distinctness as being “neither one thing nor the other” but my grandfather, a rugby player for Pontypool, was in no doubt about where his allegiances lay when it came to what really mattered to him.
In fact, the rugby test is probably as good a test as any in determining the English/Welsh question. Those who argue that the county is more English than Welsh should try popping into a Monmouthshire pub wearing an English rugby shirt during an England–Wales match. I can assure them they certainly won’t be in the majority.
During rugby and other sporting events, people in Monmouthshire know just how Welsh they really are and anyone visiting gets the message pretty quickly. And I am in no doubt where the heart of Monmouthshire lies. Yes it’s about history, yes it’s about geography. But it’s about much more than this too. It’s simply about what we feel.
We are proud of our status as a border county and one that, while being a part of Wales, has close, deep and unbreakable links to England which have helped forge its unique identity through the years. These ongoing questions of identity aren’t in my view a problem. You could argue that they are in many ways part of the identity of the area.
So yes, let’s continue having these debates about the status of border counties, not least because any debate about what makes us who we are as people is an interesting one and helps us gain a better understanding of ourselves. But at the same time let’s lay to rest any notion that the people of my corner of Wales would somehow like to move the Welsh border and to be subsumed into Wales’ much larger friend and neighbour.
I am proud to be from a part of the United Kingdom which draws its rich heritage from two of Great Britain’s constituent parts. But during this Eisteddfod week and beyond, I for one will definitely be keeping the Welsh flag flying here.
Tags: Blaenau Gwent, Eisteddfod, identity, Monmouthshire
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27 Comments
Not sure about “…..the Welsh won’t have us” headline – “..the Welsh refuse to let us go” is maybe more accurate
But there you have it, from the horses mouth (no offence Nick!). So can those English Nationalists (who don’t actually live in Monmouth) please stop trying to set Monmouth up as some kind of point-scoring battleground? It’s in Wales, the people there are Welsh, always have been and always will be. Diolch
Were the people of Monmouthshire ever consulted on which country they wanted to be part of?
“Were the people of Monmouthshire ever consulted on which country they wanted to be part of?”
Were the people of Wales?
Does it really matter a great deal which side of the border you’re on?
Monmouth is a beautiful town and it does seem one could be in the Cotswolds. It has a more English feel than if one is in some areas of West Glos like Cinderford or Lydney, where one could easily feel they are in Wales.
‘The English don’t want us and the welsh won’t have us’ – I originally thought it could be another case for an independent state like the Cornish pasties! I dunno about that using the rugger criteria. Years ago in a Monmouth pub I saw a lot of English shirts during an international with France.
Can’t remeber whether we got round to the Henry V bit last time round so here it is anyway …
FLUELLEN
Your majesty says very true: if your majesties is
remembered of it, the Welshmen did good service in a
garden where leeks did grow, wearing leeks in their
Monmouth caps; which, your majesty know, to this
hour is an honourable badge of the service; and I do
believe your majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek
upon Saint Tavy’s day.
KING HENRY V
I wear it for a memorable honour;
For I am Welsh, you know, good countryman.
FLUELLEN
All the water in Wye cannot wash your majesty’s
Welsh plood out of your pody, I can tell you that:
God pless it and preserve it, as long as it pleases
his grace, and his majesty too!
@senn: ” Years ago in a Monmouth pub I saw a lot of English shirts during an international with France”
About a month ago in a Valleys pub I saw lots of English shirts during a World Cup game. Does that mean the Valleys are in England too?
It’s time we had the beautiful county of Herefordshire back too
Worth poiting out that another interesting ‘border anomally’ is that the New Saints – who have being doing Wales so proud in the Champions League qualifiers recently – play their home games at Park Hall … in Oswestry, which is in … er … Shropshire.
Perhaps that is the reason BBC Radio Wales couldn’t be bothered to cover the New Saints’ European games? You have to tune in to Radio Shropshire to hear live commentary on the Welsh champions’ European Cup games. You would think that the Welsh nation’s premier broadcaster would consider it part of its remit to cover the Welsh football champions’ European Cup games.
Why don’t Monmouthshire and Wales reclaim parts of Herefordshire, the old Welsh kingdom of Erging? Parts of Erging were Welsh-speaking until the 19th century and to this day there are plenty of Powells and Griffiths in places like Bagwyllidiart, Velindre and Llangarron.
I’ve tried the rugby test in Hereford on a Wales-England match day and there are red shirts aplenty.
As for Oswestry/Croesoswallt, it’s a bilingual town serving a rural Welsh-speaking area to its west and Owain Glyndwr’s old court in Sycharth is just down the road. Surely Wales can claim this place back.
I am from Shropshire and I am English – very much English and if you dare even lay claim to one inch of my country there will be trouble – got it
Ooo! This is fun. Can we get the Clun Forest back, too? And what about Kington, whose church is full of memorials in Welsh (and whose nearby estate at Hergest once famously housed the Red Book)?
And scrape away the genteel, English middle class-ness that stifles Ludlow, and you’ll find that the ordinary people of the town are all called Hughes and Prichard and Owen.
I think we have grounds for invasion, for the several reasons listed above, and because for several centuries, the English have steadfastly refused – I say refused – to repeal laws that allow nocturnal Welsh trespassers to be shot in the precincts of Hereford, Chester and (I think) Shrewsbury cathedrals. Damn their eyes, let’s ‘ave ‘em. Meet me at the border with your swords.
Yes. If any border towns want a dust up, I will meet you in Nandos in Cabot Circus. I fancy Chester, because had we had that, we would have had Michael Owen for the football team.
Funny how there’s no English nationalists claiming Wrexham for England, even though Wat’s dyke passes to the west of Wrexham. Poor old Wrexham, so unloved.
@Duncan: there is a bylaw in Chester, that states:
“all manner of Welsh persons or Welsh sympathies should be expelled from the city; that no Welshman should enter the city before sunrise or tarry in it after sunset, under pain of decapitation”
dunno if its ever been enforced though lol
“Funny how there’s no English nationalists claiming Wrexham for England…”
They certainly wouldn’t have dared prior to 1986 – they’d have been claiming the home of the FAW!
Well I’m an English Nationalist and I feel the Monmouth question needs to be addressed. It was merged into Wales to become ‘Gwent’ without consulting the locals in a referendum. Look at the facts, how many people in Monmouthshire speak Welsh? How many of them voted overwhelmingly against devolution in 1997? If Monmouthshire was in England there would be no question of a yes vote in the devolution referendum.
But I also feel that the status of Monmouthshire could also be applicable to the whole of Wales in the event of the UK breaking up. What would be your constitional preference for Wales if Scotland & Northern Ireland were to leave separate?
Would you suppport independence from England, devolution within England, a federal system with England or another solution?
The only way I would agree to any kind of union with Wales would be if the people of Wales voted to become part of England, so that Wales would no longer exist, otherwise I would want them to be fully independant.
It is important to point out that during Act of Union 1707 Wales was already a Principality to the Kingdom of England, I don’t think Wales became separate until 1955. Wales is still strongly integrated with England, English law applies to Wales, Welsh teams play in the English league, English banknotes are used in Wales, yet on the other side of the coin Wales has its own language & its own strong identity.
I would put this to referendum & it would be entirely down to the Welsh electorate to decide, but only between the options of Independence or becoming part of England. I never want to see a situation where England has to ‘subsidise’ another nation or devolved region, I would resent my Enlgish identity being rejected for British becuse 3 million Welsh do not feel comfortable being called English!
how about the people of england vote to become part of wales……so england no longer exists?
The problem, English and Proud, is that hardly anyone in Monmouthshire thinks there is any kind of problem that “needs addressing”. The “self” bit in “self-determination” is important, it isn’t for you to have any kind of determination over Wales or any part of Wales. The fact that you do have such an outlook suggests to me that unknowingly, you espouse a kind of nationalism that is more British than English.
Some lovely border skirmishes here. Nice article, and a pleasant comment thread.
is Monmouthshire against devolution or for devolution? Looking at 1979 across the whole old Gwent, the answer is clearly against. Fast forward eighteen years and it’s more complex. Newport voted No, Torfaen did too (albeit very narrowly) and there was a 7 to 1 vote against in the new county of Monmouthshire. However, Blaenau Gwent said yes, as did Caerphilly (which includes the old borough of Islwyn).
In 2011 I expect new Monmouthshire’s opposition to have been slashed and a more positive result across the whole county.
But is it too much to expect English nationalists to stop moaning about some sort of annexation of Monmouthshire? You’d be much better off devoting your energies to your real nationalist cause. There may not have been much of an appetite for devolution in Monmouthshire (old or new) in the last quarter of the twentieth century, but there is way, way less for challenging the constitutional place of the county/counties within Wales.
The border of Wales may have been wobbly once, but it is administratively porous no more. The fact people on both sides can laugh about it proves that point to me emphatically.
English and Proud – I think you’ll find the banknotes are Welsh… but we’re generous enough to let you use them…..
@Daran: “The border of Wales may have been wobbly once, but it is administratively porous no more”
really? what about the West Cheshire/North East Wales sub regional strategy then?
Monmouth is so obviously a part of Wales and we love the place.Trying to argue over this would be like Wales saying we need to take back the bits of Shropshire ,Worcestshire ,Gloucestishire and Merseyside that used to belong to us.Hell why stop there,why dont we claim back Mercia,Birmingham,Wolverhampton,Manchester ,Cumbria,Yorkshire and the north of Engand,.Shit why not go further back and claim our old settlement of london back and then the whole of England.Then Europe would await….
you get my point…
To answer this question I think we should ignore the Marches and the Acts of Union and look at the extent of the English realm at the time of the Norman Conquest; that should give us a definitive answer to what constitutes England. I’m sorry chaps but Harold Godwines sunu, as Earl of Hereford, had driven the Welsh from, what is now, Monmouthshire so the rural east of the former county was definitely English and the valleys Welsh. The county’s former designation of not fully English nor Welsh but Utrique Fidelis is, therefore, the most fitting designation. The legal position of ‘Fealty to Both’ is anti-discriminatory because I feel English but this has no credence in law but the Welshman’s identity does – blatant discrimination! To answer the rugby question: until 1974 Monmouthshire Clubs’ players had the choice of playing for England or Wales; they may have all chosen to play for Wales but what matters is that they had a choice. Monmouthshire was unique and now it’s ordinary and we are all diminished by that!
Blaenau Gwent, speaks for its self, historicaly Monmouth is Gwent before the British came to our shores as Anglo-Saxons it is a Birish device to keep down, the English man living in Gwent calls it Monmouth, the Welsh man ethnic native Brythonic peoples the Silurians of Gwent…which is us, our greatest King `Arthwyr’,(Arth-means Bear in Welsh wyr-means Exalted, (the Bear Exalted) Arthwyr ap Meurig, ap Tewdrig(Tudor) king of Gwent, sovereign of the Silures and there for of the Brythonic (Welsh speaking)tribes of Prydain(Briton)and of the lands thare now called Cornwall, and of the Lands of Brittany, then called Amorica.We are the warrior class of the Welsh tribes, we built Stone henge, we built Bryn Glasdyn (Glastonbury) these things are greater than the Britsh built even to day, our poetry is the most complex of any other form in the world, our Books written by Welsh monks, the Mabinogi inspired a summer nights dream by Shakespear and first spoke of Arthwyr, it tells of the fairy pool of the Tylywth teg at Abergavenny, pwc is the Oak tree that gaurds the pool. Druids began in Wales they taught the Greeks to heal, you are most definately Welsh there were no counties then we were one people a family a tribe be proud, learn to speak your mother tongue, not your slave language then you will know who you are it will not be from Monmoth it will be Gwentian. Hwyl fawr!
Anyone interested in the identity of the county of Monmouth, from the Wye to the Rhymney please visit the Monmouthshire Association website.
Monmouthshire Association, a link might be helpful?