Real green shoots in a world of hammers
Even robots still need humans, but car makers use Welsh workers less and less
PEOPLE in politics – like people in other walks of life – will frequently tell you how hard they work, how tired they are. It’s understandable – after all, elbow grease is an attribute that voters take into consideration come election time.
But even from inside the bubble, it is easy to become cynical about such claims. Last week, as the Assembly entered its final week of sitting before the summer recess, the 200-strong workforce at the Linamar plant in Swansea agreed, with heavy hearts, to accept the redundancy package put forward by their Canadian auto manufacturer employer. Their decision brings to an end half a century of component making on the site and effectively closes the chapter on car manufacturing in the city. It’s also a huge personal disappointment, as I had been working with the union and workforce, attempting to liaise with Ford (a principal customer) and lobbying ministers in an attempt to secure the plant’s viability, as closure has loomed over Linamar Swansea for the best part of a year now.
All of this, however, must take second place to support for the workers, who now have to begin hunting for jobs in a recession. Therefore, I was very surprised when they told me that Ford, now recruiting at Bridgend ahead of the start of its Ecoboost engine programme, had refused even to send application forms to staff at Linamar, or extend the deadline for getting them in, which was a week ago last Friday. What introduces doubt where Ford’s actions are concerned, if the claims are correct, is that many of the Linamar boys and girls have extensive experience in auto manufacture not only through the present company, but because they have in the past worked for Ford and Visteon, previous occupants of the Fabian Way site. In a world where industry voices continuous concern over the sourcing of skills, why would any business shut its doors to such experience?
Ford’s name is often less-than-glorious in this part of South Wales West. Constituents who worked at the Fabian Way plant will tell of their suspicions of disputes and walk-outs contrived at times of over production, along with a whole host of other clever tricks to keep costs in check. But its reputation has really gone to the wolves over its involvement in the life and death of Visteon UK.
Prior to 2000, the cost of transferring car parts manufactured by Ford between its many plants (and, at this time, the corporation was still producing vehicles in the UK, at Dagenham) was paid for in what was known as “wooden dollars”. What this meant was that the cost of the part was added to the ultimate price tag of the vehicle.
But with workforces in the BRICs economies beginning to become available, Ford – like many other companies at this time – saw that it could reduce its component costs while retaining the prices it charged, thereby increasing its margin. It took the decision to spin out its components division, assisting in the creation of the Visteon Corporation, and effectively creating an internal market.
What happened after this is well documented and likely to form the basis of a forthcoming court case between Ford and the Visteon workers’ union Unite. Having been involved with this campaign to recover the pensions of 700 former Visteon workers from Swansea for over a year now, I – along with my Plaid Parliamentary colleagues – am currently in correspondence with the new government, calling for a Parliamentary investigation into the cause of Visteon UK’s collapse (the last Labour government – oddly – had no stomach for such an inquiry), as well as liaising with the Pensions Regulator, which continues to look into the company’s demise.
What is clear is that Ford didn’t give Visteon a chance. It insisted that component manufacturing staff that switched to the new company had their terms and conditions ‘mirrored’. Saddled with high contribution final salary schemes and having been told almost immediately by Ford to cut prices by a third, the new company took a three-year pension holiday. During that time, it retired most of the longest-serving members of staff and filled their posts with new staff on less generous terms. This presumably answered short-term cashflow challenges, but had two far more detrimental effects longer term.
Firstly, as those staff moved into early retirement, the number of contributors to the final salary scheme fell sharply, from 11 contributing to 1 receiving to 0.2 workers for every retiree. Secondly, when Visteon UK went bust on March 31 last year and the company applied to enter the Pension Protection Fund because its own scheme was in considerable deficit, it led to the situation where, among the 3,500 former Visteon workers who were left pension-less, there are workers that spent 30 years contributing while working at Ford and only six months at Visteon who have been left with nothing for their retirement.
But there is a wider picture to consider here, too – one that I made during a short debate in the Assembly several months back, and one that I have been trying to impress upon the new Pensions Minister, Steve Webb. If Ford is allowed to escape its pension obligations where Visteon staff are concerned, it gives a green light to every less-than-scrupulous corporation around the world that the UK provides a no-questions-asked dumping ground for in-deficit pension funds. This would only place further pressure on the PPF – or, more importantly, its contributors. These are businesses that are compelled through a levy to finance part of the fund – something they might justifiably challenge if there is further reason to doubt its equitability.
But it also brings us to the point where, in the depths of this recession, we should be asking what kind of companies we want here in Wales. Do we want blue chip names at any cost, even if they play fast and loose with the vagaries of international corporate responsibilities, skipping in and out of different countries, with inevitably poor consequences for their Welsh workers – and for the tax payer, too, when Unison estimates that it costs the public purse around £16,000 every time a person is made redundant? Or should we rather instead focus our attentions on turning our many, many SMEs into world beaters?
I recently met with a project team working on an incredibly exciting project near Port Talbot. If the scheme goes ahead – and there are a number of significant ifs to be answered – it will be anchored around a plant built by Scottish Energy. As I heard this, I wondered to myself: “Why couldn’t it be built and run by a Welsh company?” This may have been prompted by research I read earlier this year which showed that a large number of SMEs in Wales are sold when they are between five and seven-years-old. The research concluded that it was because too often the boards and management teams simply to not have the wherewithal to take their business to the next level.
The new Economic Development Programme goes some way towards addressing the issue of focusing on bringing along homegrown businesses, despite what the immediate responses of some Tories suggested. This is because it is in the development of the skills base that we can provide people with the tools to start and develop their own companies into ones like Scottish Power.
There has been criticism that the ERP contained no numbers, simply policy flavours. That’s true. But it’s a hugely ambitious programme of work. The proof of its worth must come in its delivery, and here it could learn from the outcome of the Linamar closure. By the company’s own measurement, the Swansea plant was one of the best performers across the business. What work there is will go to Linamar’s Mexico factory, one of its worst.
Can we blame Linamar? Certainly. But it is worth remembering that Linamar came to Swansea with reassurances that it would be sourcing contracts from Ford. Those contracts – certainly where Ford Bridgend is concerned – never came. Meanwhile, the Welsh Government has given Ford a £16 million grant towards the development of Ecoboost facilities there.
Did it insist on a degree of local sourcing when it made the award? Not as far as we know. Should it have insisted? Well, there are arguments for and against, and here’s where the difficulty in giving grants – or loans, as they shall be from now on – lies. A company like Ford can dangle the carrot of plenty of work before a government and then coyly ask for grants to make it ‘viable’. Terrified that not only will the contract slip through their fingers but also with it will go any existing work, ministers hastily reach for their cheque books. They simply don’t have the time or the bargaining position to attach strings, we are led to believe. Quite simply, this makes inward investors too powerful.
But much of this would be moot if the Welsh Government was to adopt a recommendation in the recently-published final report of the Holtham Commission, seeking successful discussions with the UK Government in order to vary Corporation Tax in Wales. Although the commission admitted that such a move would “carry acute budgetary risks”, it concluded that such a suggestion should be weighed against its “potential … as a development tool”. Such a recommendation would put Wales ahead of Scotland because, as the Campaign for Fiscal Responsibility pointed out this week, it would give us greater devolved financial powers. CFFR founder Ben Thomson said of Holtham the report: “This certainly is a move in the right direction and goes a lot further than the proposals put forward by Calman.”
But it could effectively hand the power over inward investment back to the Welsh Government. This is crucial, not least because it has far wider economic consequences to take account of than simply the narrow considerations of a business looking to set up in Wales.
Both the ERP and the Holtham reports provide clear ways for building a successful future Welsh economy. But, in many ways, they seek to turn a battleship, unpicking and redrawing ways that were established as far back as the Post War period. It is my belief that Corporation Tax variance could be won for Wales significantly sooner. We need indigenous world-beating Welsh businesses, but they need time to develop. In the meantime, Wales must protect and enhance its reputation by continuing to attract blue chip companies. However, we must do it on our own terms. This recession, and lessons like Linamar, shows us why.
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Bethan,
An excellent article and I both sympathise and empathise with the predicament of the employees at Linamar. However, the pace of change in the world is accelerating and as you point out the right decisions have to be made quickly.
Regarding the £16m Ford grant, I presume that the terms and conditions have not been published – are they accessible under a FOI? In truth WAG does not posses the required competency and experience
for such negotiations.
The BRIC countries now, not only do they have lower manufacturing costs but their technology and quality of graduates are now very competitive with those from the UK. A Welsh hi-tech service company that I know has this month won contracts in India, Ghana, Malaysia and PNG but the daily bill-out rates in India are the same as the hourly rate in the UK. Thus to sustain and grow business in such countries it will have to establish subsidiaries in those countries whilst maintaining the the hi-tech development in Wales.
Yes Wales can follow Ireland in having competitive corporation rates – that did not protect it from a severe recesssion – a recession where Ministers in Ireland set the example by taking a 15% pay cut – will we see similar volunteers from Cardif Bay?
Yet today I note that some civil servants in WAG have been awarded a pay rise, even though their numbers seem to have multiplied in recent years.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/…/revealed-shocking-growth-in-number-of-welsh-civil-servants-91466-26871372/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/07/19/assembly-staff-given-pay-rise-91466-26880313/
Economically the UK is very near the same economic state as in 1945 – no money as Liam Byrne’s departing note said. Thus we all should act in the same way – as on a war footing and spend accordingly – less on revenue and more on capital to improve infrastructure.
You speak of turning a battleship, in reality it is more like turning an oil tanker with jammed steering. This weekend I attended an informal meeting of CEOs of European blue chip multinationals. The discussion majored on future developments and where to locate them. Wales and Ireland were mentioned and both had advantages and disadvantages.
The real question that was not posed by WAG in the EDP was “why should any company invest in Wales?” When the answers to that question are faced, then a route forward may be more apparent.
The proposal to reduce corporation tax in Northern ireland shows that it isn’t a simple solution to attracting more business investment. Given the issues with the Azores case there is still a chance that such a move could be challenged by the European Commission. If corporation tax is devolved to Stormont then any reduction in the tax would not be compensated by the Barnett formula. It is estimated that the 12.5% reduction proposed could lead to £200 million a year reduction in the money available to the devolved administration in Northern Ireland.
Given the close proximity with England it could also as the panel of experts argued during the preparation of the Holtham report lead to a ‘beggar my neightbour ‘ approach as companies play off varying levels of corporation tax within the UK. 10 local authority leaders in the south of England have already written to the government criticising the national insurance changes introduced in the budget designed to help business outside the south of England. There would be uproar in areas such as Liverpool, the West Midlands and Bristol if Wales was allowed to vary corporation tax.
The economic difficulties of the Irish Republic with its credit rating being down graded by Moodys also suggests that the long term benefits of corporation tax reductions were exaggerated.
Finally more worrying in the long term than the closure of Linamar for the Welsh economy is the decision of Gardner Aerospace to close its Maesteg factory and move the work to Basildon. The analysis of this decision after the company was effectively taken over by an investment fund would say a great deal about the present difficulties facing industry in the Valleys.
“There would be uproar in areas such as Liverpool, the West Midlands and Bristol if Wales was allowed to vary corporation tax.” But Jeff we are a devolved nation within the UK, Liverpool and Bristol are not, surely if Northern Ireland can vary corporation tax, then I do believe after 13 years of devolution, we should look seriously at this matter. Too many businesses are failing in Wales, something needs to be done. If the corporation tax would help then at least we should look at it.
“Why couldn’t it be built and run by a Welsh company?” …
… Scottish Energy owns the SWALEC brand does this make it a Welsh company; of course we all know companies are owned by their shareholders, as is Scottish Energy, so in all probability is owned indirectly by pensioners in Wales, and Scotland …. etc.
I think Ms. J is projecting a wish for her preferred “decentralised socialism”, whatever that might be.
“Scottish Energy owns the SWALEC brand does this make it a Welsh company; of course we all know companies are owned by their shareholders, as is Scottish Energy, so in all probability is owned indirectly by pensioners in Wales, and Scotland.”
Oh well, that’s alright, then. As usual, you pick one sentence in isolation in order to flam up some kind of unsubstantiated conclusion. Read the next sentence:
“This may have been prompted by research I read earlier this year which showed that a large number of SMEs in Wales are sold when they are between five and seven-years-old. The research concluded that it was because too often the boards and management teams simply to not have the wherewithal to take their business to the next level.”
The argument – obviously – has nothing to do with Plaid socialism, and everything to do with taking Welsh SMEs and growing them into successful, sizeable businesses. Do you have any objection to that?
The idea of component parts of the UK competing with each other for ever lower tax is a deeply unpleasant one.
I seem to remember a line in the recent Holtham report that suggested that this sort of thing was highly dubious.
It invites the prospect of major employers trading us off against each other. This could be damaging to public services.
Mr Higgit …
… you used the following extract from Ms J’s pamphlet … “This may have been prompted by research … etc.
If the assumed research had been referenced it would have carried weight, possibly your employer could provide the reference so that the readers could make their own judgement ?
Jeff Jones is concerned with how measures that might benefit Wales would be received in England. There speaks an Old Labour Brit for whom ‘Wales’ is almost a dirty word.
One of the most enthusiastic supporters of cutting corporation tax in Northern Ireland is the new Secretary of State Owen Patterson. His aim is to reduce UK government expenditure in Northern Ireland. If you want to read the possible effects on the economy of Northern Ireland of devolving corporation tax then read the article in the Belfast Telegraph of 16 March 2010 which summarises the arguments of the Economic Reform Group. No one is also discussing the effect on economic development in the UK if you have all three devolved administrations cutting corporation tax. Does anyone seriously believe that politicians in the North West, the West Country and the West Midlands in particular are going to do nothing and allow tax changes which could give the devolved regions an unfair advantage in their eyes?
What I’ve pointed out is that changes in corporation tax can only be brought about by the UK government and would have to be approved by the EU. The problem for Wales is that its linkage with the UK economy and geographical closeness to England does not make this a simple decision for any UK government no matter what their political persuasion.
Marx once argued that if you want to change the world you have to see it as it is. It’s easy for some Plaid activists who knowing that they will never have any influence over the decisions of any UK government believe that all that is needed is the £300 million from reform of the Barnett formula and the devolving of corporation tax to the Assembly. The real world is a little more complicated than that as the demolition of Ieuan Wyn Jones’s ideas on economic strategy clearly shows.
Unfortunately some individuals in Plaid also sadly it seems believe that you can win a political argument by just insulting people. All you do by adopting such a tactic is to allow your opponents I’m afraid to win by default and prove with some notable exceptions such as Adam Price, Jonathan Edwards and Eurfyl ap Gwillym that you have very little to offer mature political debate in modern Wales.
Royston hits the nail.
I don’t understand business, or much of modern politics, but it has to be a case of Wales First. Our politicians have to, by their mandate from the people of Wales, do everything they can to make Wales a thriving economy. If that means outbidding England, Ireland, Scotland, then do it. You can be very sure that in the tough times ahead THEY will, and they won’t think twice about it.
“The demolition of Ieuan Wyn Jones’s ideas on economic strategy clearly shows.”
Does this refer to the questions that Dylan Jones Evans has raised, and which has somehow been turned into a blogosphere crusade, participated in by a handful of people? A demolition of what? A garden shed? And I don’t see how you can jump so early. You know this is the start of a process. At this point, anybody can rubbish a set of ideas, stroke chins and talk about how it’s all in the delivery. Yes, exactly. So give it time to deliver. The same argument could be made of Leighton Andrews higher education strategy. Anyone who read it could have huge misgivings about a paper that banks everything on foreign student influxes. But let’s give it time to deliver.
As usual, Jeff has made some good, cogent points that are worthy of further discussion, particularly on Corporation Tax. But now he has gone sideways into a tribalistic rant. Nobody was talking in terms of red vs green (if you are referring to Royston, I suggest you read his biography on this site – he hasn’t been a member of Plaid for around a quarter of a century). But now we’re on to examining parties and what they have to offer.
Labour has effectively held sway over Wales – certainly in the South – for the better part of 80 years. Across the UK, the electorate has returned a number of Labour governments in that time. So, going purely on record, how has Wales improved through policy in that time? Is it more affluent and economically productive? Is its people healthier and wealthier? Education (be careful how you answer this)? GVA? GDP? What about all these big factors? Are they changed?
I imagine the defence will point to the collapse of heavy industry and the advent of globalisation. Leaving aside the argument that Labour is a big party that is supposed to come up with big ideas (what you might call mature political debate), its one and only strategic stab at these issues – nationalisation – actually accelerated the decline of coal production and steel making.
What you could do is credit the Deputy First Minister for at least having a go with the ERP. Instead, this has descended into name-calling exercise and you are little too close to glass to be lobbing rocks around. And while we’re on the subject of mature political debate, are you going to tell me that Labour’s entire narrative for the forthcoming Assembly election won’t be a retread of the “keep the Tories out” line you ran in May?
Duncan. Of course it will be a rerun of only Labour can defend Wales against the Tory/Liberal Democrat coalition. It’s a sensible policy to follow as it was in the 1980s. How successful it will be this time only time will tell. What is interesting at the moment in England as Labour controlled local authorities make the cuts is that much of the anger is being directed not at the UK government but at the local authority.
On Labour’s record is patchy like that of most parties that have been in power but on balance the UK and Wales is a far better place because there were Labour governments in the past. My view on the past 13 years is that it was a missed opportunity and Labour could have achieved much more. The Brown-Blair issue unfortunately produced particularly after 2001 a dysfunctional party. It failed to reform the public sector and welfare for a start.
If you are a Nationalist of course you believe in putting Wales first. If you didn’t then you wouldn’t be a nationalist. If on the other hand, you are not a nationalist then you start to question whether you can put into practice policies which are different from other parts of the UK. Can there ever be an economic strategy for Wales given the diverse nature of the economy in the region and its closeness to England is a real question that needs to be answered. Too many people want a Welsh solution to everything and an artificial divide with whatever is happening in England even if the policies being adopted in England in health and education make sense.
As for the critcism of the economic strategy, I will leave Dylan Jones-Evans to defend himself. What is more worrying are the anonymous criticisms on the blogs from civil servants who are obviously very unhappy with the thrust of the policy. What should also worry everyone In Wales is what if the new Local Enterprise Partnerships in England take off. Whereas the Cardiff City region which should be the powerhouse for development in the south east is being hamstrung by the Assembly its rivals such as Bristol as being given the tools to really make a difference. What we need in Wales is less political correctness and continually reinventing the wheel and a greater emphasis on what works.
On the issue of Corporation tax all I’m pointing out is that the key decisions will be made by the UK government and they have to be in line with EU policy. The major issue as the Azores case shows is whether or not Wales could be classed as an autonomous region. Given the lack of tax raising powers on the part of the Assembly I would argue that even with law making powers it would be difficult to argue that Wales is an autonomous region as defined by the EU. To argue that corporation tax is a solution is therefore putting the cart befofe the horse. That is why Holtham raised it but with the caveat that a great deal of work had to be done.
On a party political issue your party really has to work out where it goes next. Except for the ministerial cars I really don’t think that you have gained a great deal politically from the One Wales agreement in terms of furthering the ultimate goal of the party. You will get a referendum sometime next year but it is on an issue which is not likely particularly if it is held on a separate day to bring voters rushing to the polls. In fact the turnout will once again probably only confirm that the majority of voters in Wales are still pretty indifferent to the Assembly. Your election results in May were awful and it isn’t any use arguing that voters adopt a different attitude in UK rather than Assembly elections. They completely rejected Plaid and the SNP’s argument that only the nationalists could get the best deal from any minority UK government. In seats such as Ogmore where you should be making real progress if you are to make a breakthrough you are in a worse position than in 1979. In many of the seats in the South East your presence is non existent. Yet with your most interesting thinker in the USA I don’t see any debate taking place regarding the future direction of the party. The failure to regain a seat in Gwynedd and the gossipy story in the press on the weekend suggests that less than a year before the Assembly election you are struggling to find a narrative to sell to the voters.
“Labour has effectively held sway over Wales – certainly in the South – for the better part of 80 years”
In local government perhaps. For most of the 20th century, however and indeed for most of the period since 1922 when the party supplanted the Liberals, Labour has not held power at Westminster. 1945-51, 1964-70, 1974-79, 1997-2010. 20 years of the 20th century has Labour held power at other than a local level in Wales, during which time and on each occasion Welsh fortunes, variously defined, improved.
Let’s bear that in mind when we do the “what have the Romans ever done for us?” stuff.
Thanks for the full response, Jeff. You’ll find we aren’t a million miles apart on a fair bit of it.
On the following:
“What is more worrying are the anonymous criticisms on the blogs from civil servants who are obviously very unhappy with the thrust of the policy.”
We know why this is happening. And don’t take my word for it – Andrew Davies AM is the most prominent critic in this area. His views on performance management vs business management are to be recommended, along with his opinions on resistance to change and overall effectiveness.
On the issue of separate economic policy, while Wales faces challenges found elsewhere in the UK (and across much of the world, certainly in the West) it is the way they fit together – the patchwork – that makes the country unique. Wales is home to a number of micro-demographies, areas that have advanced and declined at different rates that often sit cheek-by-jowl. What this behoves is bespoke solutions.
Now, for the sake of convenience, it is easy to group them under a Wales title. Of course, this being Wales, even the use of the word stirs emotion and controversy (and I’m not only pointing the finger at Labour). My personal view is that putting the economy first, finding these solutions as we must, may well lead us further down the devolution road. But that would be a beneficial consequence (for a nationalist). It should not be the starting point. That starting point – and I think we can agree that this is the purpose of the ERP, even if you disagree with its execution – should be finding a path to prosperity.
Adam, you mention 45-51. For the reason I briefly mention above, I contend that our industrial fortunes did not improve as a consequence of what happened during that time.
“Except for the ministerial cars I really don’t think that you have gained a great deal politically from the One Wales agreement in terms of furthering the ultimate goal of the party.”
Jeff.
I actually agree with you on the need for Plaid to have a strategic rethink at short and medium term goals. But have you not considered whether a successful referendum, one which numbers wise only a Plaid/Labour coalition could have got through the assembly, is a step further in devolution terms? If you think it is not, you should perhaps tell most of the Labour AMs and First Minister.
It is a point Adam Higgitt makes continually – none of the parties had this referendum in their 2007 manifestos. Without One Wales, this referendum would not be happening.
Which one of you is wrong?
“The real world is a little more complicated than that as the demolition of Ieuan Wyn Jones’s ideas on economic strategy clearly shows.”
Not that they have been demolished, but were they not ideas produced in concert with the CBI, TUC, and academia at Economic Summits where the Labour First Minister was also often present?
Clearly Dylan Jones-Evans is not some kind of neutral commentator. He is a Tory activist and often a candidate.
In fact the ideas- Ieuan Wyn Jones’ or otherwise- contained in the Economic Renewal Programme have generally been welcomed.
“Too many people want a Welsh solution to everything and an artificial divide with whatever is happening in England even if the policies being adopted in England in health and education make sense.”
If you think foundation hospitals and academy schools “make sense” then you’re not worthy of quoting the words of Marx.
“Except for the ministerial cars I really don’t think that you have gained a great deal politically from the One Wales agreement in terms of furthering the ultimate goal of the party. ”
Wishful thinking I’m afraid. Don Touhig- who whatever you want to say was not an idiot- was right when he said “the nationalists get more out of this deal than they have in their entire history”. Support for devolution breaching the 50% mark under One Wales is pretty significant.
In the UK the financial sector is overblown and plays a bigger role than in any other major economy. This situation has developed over centuries and it has benefited the south-east of England. Within this system the only advantage for Wales was that England – especially its wealthier parts – provided a market for primary products such as animals on the hoof and capital to exploit our natural resources.
But exporting your livestock on the hoof and over-exploiting your natural resources (or have others do it) are classic signs of a colonial economy, in our case an internal colony. The remedy to this lies neither in Marx nor in Chicago but in ourselves. Wales needs its own financial sector, Wales needs its own economy, Wales needs Welsh people comfortable with getting rich . . . and creating employment.
Neither Labour nor Plaid can provide us with what we need because neither party understands nor is sympathetic to business. The Conservative and Unionist Party may be business orientated but it will always favour England and the Union againt Wales’ best interests. Ergo Wales needs a total reconfiguration of its political line-up, for without a party, or at least an influential grouping, that is both business savvy and patriotic Wales will continue its downward economic spiral to basket case status (the figures alleviated only by wealthy immigrants, mainly to our rural and coastal areas).
This is one reason I am a nationalist, and why I rejected Plaid Cymru years ago, long before the rise of its Lesbian Left. This may make me a voice in the wilderness but when I see how paradise has become a home for the helpless and the hopeless led by useless then the wilderness becomes increasingly attractive.
Jeff Jones views my description of him – “Old Labour Brit for whom ‘Wales’ is almost a dirty word” – as an insult (which it is) but then wrongly deduces that this means I have nothing more to say. I have plenty to say.
Partisan. How do you explain Plaid’s results in May? False consciousness on the part of the majority of Welsh electors perhaps? Given the unpopularity of the Labour government in Westminster they were pretty dire. In the more urban parts of Wales they were more on a par with a fringe party rather than a party that hopes one day to have a majority in Wales. I would be a bit embarassed to come behind even the BNP in some seats. In my own constituency Plaid came a poor fourth even with a reasonable campaign, to be fair to local Plaid activists – way behind the Tory candidate, who was parachuted in from England and did nothing. Plaid strategists should be asking why can’t the party attract the thousands of voters including former Labour voters who are not voting for anyone at the moment. A majority for devolution in an opinion poll isn’t a triumph for Plaid. It merely vindicates those in the Labour Party who argued that devolution would kill nationalism stone dead as the support for independence or lack of it consistently shows.
My point wasn’t that I believe that Royston Jones has nothing more to say. My argument is that once you engage in insults no one listens to you. An argument reinforced by his rather immature comments regarding female members of Plaid Cymru.
“Partisan. How do you explain Plaid’s results in May? False consciousness on the part of the majority of Welsh electors perhaps?”
The people of Wales wanted to stick with the London-based parties, plain and simple, because the election was referenced through a British lens. Of course there is an element of false consciousness but prior to the televised debates Plaid Cymru had a higher poll rating in Wales than the Lib Dems – in fact they had their highest ever opinion poll rating for a Westminster election, 15%, before the debates. The people of Wales chose not to elect more than three Plaid MPs, that is democracy and Plaid will have to try again next time.
I’m not embarassed about the BNP because their rise was caused by the behaviour of the Labour party in backing the scapegoating of asylum seekers and abandoning working class people. Finishing behind the BNP is one thing but your party has actually lost dozens of council seats to the fascists. Plaid never has.
“In the more urban parts of Wales they were more on a par with a fringe party rather than a party that hopes one day to have a majority in Wales.”
I cannot speak directly for Plaid but my understanding is that they believe in PR and don’t see things in the quasi-Stalinist “absolute majority” sense that Labour does. It’s about achieving Plaid’s constitutional aims, not winning power for the sake of it. Maybe Labour should’ve read the same rulebook instead of leaving us with record inequality after 13 years, two illegal wars and a legacy of torture. My conscience is clean. Plaid got every major question right during your reign of terror at Westminster.
“A majority for devolution in an opinion poll isn’t a triumph for Plaid. It merely vindicates those in the Labour Party who argued that devolution would kill nationalism stone dead as the support for independence or lack of it consistently shows.”
You are misguided Jeff. It is exactly what Plaid wants to see. It is a triumph. They want a Welsh Government, a Welsh Parliament, a Welsh legal system, a Welsh fiscal policy and a Welsh taxation policy. All things that are now on the agenda (see Sir Emyr Jones Parry’s article on a Welsh legal jurisdiction this week). You have a fixation with independence, which means you don’t see devolution as the process by which Wales is becoming *more* independent with each Assembly term.
I however am more than comfortable with you believing this process is killing nationalism stone dead. “We were always at war with Eurasia. We have always been allied with Eastasia.”
Dunc
Why do you say nationalisation accelerated the decline of coal production in Wales?
I would like to return to Bethan’s original focus – the future of the economy and jobs in Wales and how this may be improved in both the short and long term to the benefit of its inhabitants.
It is most depressing to see this thread degenerate into a political argy-bargy and navel gazing when it is time to pull together and adopt the best ideas – from whichever source they may emerge.
The world does not owe any of us, Wales, the UK or Europe a living. But the culture of politics in Wales has to change or Wales will be left drowing in the wake of the new and faster-growing economies who are becoming increasingly capable of doing very nicely without us.
The Book of Proverbs says; “Where there is no vision the people perish” – who will provide that vision for Wales? – current leaders appear inadequate and the attribute of inspirational leadership is a talent given to very few.
When Dafydd Elis Thomas was elected president of Plaid Cymru in 1984 the party moved to the left, or rather, it tried to become a ‘rainbow alliance’. A curious beast this new party. At the top remained the rural, Welsh-speaking petite bourgeoisie, but in one of the more unlikely wooings it now sought the company of Greens, wimmin, CND, gay rights activists . . . in short, just about anybody who didn’t care much about Wales.
Yet one group that Plaid’s leadership has always been uncomfortable with is the southern working class (from which, incidentally, I am sprung) and this goes a long way to explaining Plaid’s consistently poor showing in the areas Jeff Jones refers to. It’s not difficult to explain this blindness, which is on a par with De Valera’s vision of a wholly rural Ireland populated by chaste maidens dancing and clean, muscular young men playing at the hurling.
Both Saunders Lewis and Gwynfor Evans are on record as saying that given the choice between an independent Wales and a Welsh-speaking Wales they would choose the latter every time. My interpretation of this sentiment is that both would have been happy to see my people live in poverty – as long as they spoke Welsh. This attitude, if muted, has permeated Plaid Cymru ever since, and goes a long way to explaining why so many in the party regard the south as De Valera’s supporters regarded the ‘Black North’. Ours, but alien.
Even when Plaid under DET tried to break with this De Valera-inspired vision it still had difficulty embracing the hwntw. Hippies were more acceptable. Nothing’s going to change unless Plaid changes – maybe a president who has never been to a noson lawen would be a good start. Because you know something is wrong when, in 2010, Plaid canvassers are still getting the doorstep response, ‘I can’t vote Plaid Cymru, love, I don’t speak Welsh’.
Plaid Cymru has nothing to offer most Welsh people. Despite recent advances at heart it remains Plaid Gwynedd. Until it can convince our people that it has something to offer them it will fail time and time again. And I am not advocating ‘reaching out’ to ethnic and other minorities but trying to make contact with those without whose support Plaid is nothing: the bulk of the population, living between Mumbles and Monmouth.
As for “immature comments regarding female members of Plaid Cymru”, unless it is personally and unnecessarily hurtful I will say what I damn well think and feel. I would rather be loyal to the countless millions who have suffered for freedom of expression than surrender to the post-’60s dictators corrupting Western life and values.
If we can return to discussing about regional tax system, there is an truly excellent article here you all might be interested to read about this very issue – http://syniadau–buildinganindependentwales.blogspot.com/2010/06/beginning-of-regional-tax-policy.html
I’m surprised that Plaid hasn’t picked up the idea floated by Prof Alison Wolf earlier this year for the end of UK wage agreements. Her argument is that in regions such as Wales the private sector is handicapped because it can’t compete with the national wage rates set by public sector wage negotiations on a UK basis.
Reductions in Corporation Tax obviously can make a region more attractive to the private sector but another way to reduce costs Wolf would argue is to have lower wages in regions where living costs are lower. I’ve never seen any Plaid paper on what wages should be paid in Wales if the Assembly had more powers. Would teachers, for example, given that supply exceeds demand in Wales, be paid less than their counterparts in the certain parts of the south of England where housing costs in particular are much greater?
Wolf’s pamphlet, which was published by a think tank with close links to the Liberal Democrats, uses the example of the individual pay bargaining established in Sweden partly as a reaction to the deficit reduction imposed by the Swedish Social Democrats in the early 1990s.
Jeff,
That idea doesn’t sound a million miles away (in practical terms, at least) from the London weighting that my wife and her colleagues used to receive when she worked as a nurse there.
Will go and look it up. Cheers.
” I would rather be loyal to the countless millions who have suffered for freedom of expression than surrender to the post-’60s dictators corrupting Western life and values.”
Royston…what on earth does that even mean?
Ad,
Yes. Effectively, it saddled the coal industry with debts it had not previously held – government debt, really – and subsequently the industry had to reach certain targets in order to satisfy that debt. This made smaller pits less viable. Wales traditionally had smaller pits and, even though the anthracite and other variants found here were of a high quality, extracting them was usually more problematic, owing to the geology of both the South Wales and North Wales coalfields. This required a higher degree of pre-extraction investment, plus it put the pressure on when unforeseen developments occurred, such as the discovery of hard shelves of rock (very common in Welsh mining).
The pit closures that took place in the 1950s and from then on were in answer to this situation of being caught – quite literally – between a rock and a hard place. Of course, external factors, like cheaper imported coal and the coming onstream of North Sea oil significantly exacerbated matters.
Partisan, it means what it says.
“Partisan, it means what it says.”
The “Cocacolation” of Western Society, Roy? Which will probably end the theocratic dictatorship in Iran before sanctions , and why for the Castros the embargo is not such a bad thing.
Alternately Political Correctness?
In Wales we have seen years of wasted economic opportunity under Labour. Objective one money which has been squandered by a government devoid of any idea of how to build a sustainable, self-regenerating economic base for our nation. In the 10 years since 1996 the GPA per head in West Wales and the Valleys has dropped from 73% of the UK average down to only 65%. And over that same period Wales has experienced the lowest increase in GPA per head of any nation or region in the UK. Bottom of the league table behind Northern Ireland and north east England. That is down to the economic measures of Labour 1997-2007. At least now Ieuan Wyn Jones, the Deputy First Minister, has brought new hope to the small and medium sized companies on which the Welsh economy is based.
To expand and prosper, we need to cut the burden of the business rate. And secure a reduced level of corporation tax. Isn’t it ironic, Adam and Jeff, that Peter Hain, while Sec of State for Northern Ireland, advocated precisely that step for that province, yet he refused to raise a finger as Sec of State for Wales to secure the same essential lever for the economy of Wales. And it’s the old coal mining valleys of the south and the old slate quarry areas of the north that are paying the price for that economic incompetence.
Yes, John, the reseach I mentioned was Gambit Corporate Finance’s Survey of Welsh Company Exits (1999-2009), released earlier this year. Among other findings, it reported that 25% of Welsh companies did not reach their fifth birthday before exit, and 60% were less than 15 years old at transition date.
You can read more on it here: http://www.gambitcf.com/news.aspx?newsid=36