Apathetic Welsh or militant Catalans?
Postcard — By Adam Higgitt on July 12, 2010 9:47 pm
Can anyone see a Welsh flag?
YOU don’t have to be a sociologist to suppose that the Spanish are feeling pretty Spanish today. If you listen to some, the long and disreputable association between the national side and and the regime of Franco has at last been cleansed. This may be an exaggeration, but this is a sport that can effect such change.
And yet, this apparent affirmation of the Spanish nation came just 24 hours after an estimated 1.1-1.5 million people gathered in Barcelona to protest the Spanish Constitutional Court’s decision to repudiate Catalan nationhood. To put that in perspective, there are around 7.3 million people in Catalonia. Even allowing for a sizeable disaporic or comradely showing from non-residents, that means around 12% of Catalans spent much of Saturday protesting what must surely be for many a recondite legal-constitutional point.
In Wales, it is difficult to conceive hundreds of thousands turning out for the cause of Welsh autonomy (for an eqivalent showing there would need to be in excess of 350,000 marching through Cardiff). And this isn’t an attack on the relatively elite-driven Welsh sovereigntist or independence movement: it’s very difficult to imagine such a high proportion of the people turning out for anything (then again, we haven’t had the cuts yet).
So why the contrast? It might of course be that the Catalans are an exceptionally animated and politically conscious people. Turnout for the most recent elections in the Autonomous Community was higher than in the 2007 Assembly elections, but not dramatically so. Catalonia is a relatively richer part of its state, and is perhaps therefore more assertive of its right to self-determination. And the debate about Catalonia’s place within Spain is qualitatively different (you might say more advanced, if you believe a greater preference for independence to represent progress).
But even these factors do not surely fully account for the vast gulf between Catalonia’s million person march and the absence of anything representing popular political protest on the streets of Wales. Answers on a postcard…
Tags: Catalonia, constitutional reform, Spain, World Cup
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30 Comments
The Welsh are apathetic. Always have been. If we weren’t we would have invaded England and enacted the tripartite indenture and stopped all this Anglo-Norman meddling once and for all. Possibly. But no butty, we don’t want to do that, chwarae teg munn. What, you want me to move out of my house so you can flood my village for water for Liverpool? Oh, go on then…
Grrrrr. Fight for gods sake. For Wales sake. For your own sake.
oh, I forgot, we DID invade England, our guy became the King after the Battle Of Bosworth… erm… fat lot of good that did us though. No wonder we’re apathetic… :-/
Well they did have 40 years of Franco whilst we only had 10 years of Margaret Thatcher! Vista Cataluna!
I think Al’s invasion argument is a bit of a misnomer. After all, it wasn’t planned as a “last one to the Irish Sea buys the beers” kind of conquest, and it was done in stages, over some time. As for fighting the English, two things counted against Wales – its rivers, which flow west to east, making passing far easier for any invader, and good, old-fashioned English duplicity, promising one thing and then doing another. There is no shame in being bested through deceit.
Wales ultimately has been undermined as a nation in every possible way since English control. Remember, the Scots maintained the legal system which became an avenue for Scottish citizens to express said nationality (or at least acted as an achor).
The Catalonia protest is astounding, and I take Adam’s point about it not being a bash at nats, that many people protesting about anything to do with the constitution is impressive.
But even these factors do not surely fully account for the vast gulf between Catalonia’s million person march and the absence of anything representing popular political protest on the streets of Wales.
It’s part of the civic/social/political culture of Catalonia and other parts of the peninsula, and is a legacy of the Civil War. The Civil War radicalized a generation of Spaniards (including Catalans of course) who are the parents and grandparents of these protesters. Here in Wales there is no such living link with a radicalized generation. There might have been had we been invaded by the Nazis, but we weren’t.
Why bother with dreary protests when you have match day nationalism? Organised sport has given Wales the means to assert nationhood both at home and on the international stage. Surely the Catalans are just a bit miffed they haven’t got a national football team?
Fair do’s, Hendre. I think that just ignited the thread!
The development of Welsh national consciousness has been much slower and more gradual, whereas Catalonia had the Civil War. I wonder if there will be any implications from this demonstration. The Catalan Generalitat could feasibly shut down their country in a general strike if they were serious about preserving their national status.
It might be that Spain’s arrogance will push the Catalans further towards independence rather than holding the Spanish state together (culturally, Spanish World Cup success might drive the more militant Catalans away instead of luring them in). But i’m not fully clued up on Catalan politics and don’t know what the dynamic is there.
Anybody out there interested in developing this into a full piece for us? What can Wales learn from Cataluyna?
Please let me know.
“It might be that Spain’s arrogance will push the Catalans further towards independence”
AIUI, the Spanish Constitutional Court’s ruling was as a result of objections to Catalonia’s revised Statue of Autonomy brought by three other Autonomous Communities – Valencia, Aragon and the Balearic Islands – as well as by the opposition People’s Party. The Spanish Parliament, according to press reports, passed the Statute.
So accusations of Spanish “arrogance” are almost certainly wide of the mark.
Illtyd
isn’t the key point about this debate that it’s really hard to see people in Wales protesting on a large scale about anything? If they/we were to it’s probably more likely to be about social issues (eg impact of spending cuts) than issues of national politics/national identity although the fragemented nature of Welsh society and the relatively dispersed nature of the population makes mass mobilisation less likely.
Goping back to the details of the article what are the practical implications of the Supreme Court Ruling?
Intransigence would be a better word than arrogance. Spain has decided that it went too far when the Catalan Statute of Autonomy was passed (it was endorsed by both the Catalan Government and the Spanish Government in Madrid, as well as in a referendum) and has now ruled that parts of it are unconstitutional.
The Constitutional Tribunal has dithered over its decision for years, and in that time the pressure for Catalunya’s nationhood to be recognized has steadily grown. It is hardly surprising that it should erupt in such a large demonstration when the decision was published.
The big question is whether such a large demonstration will “get it off their chests” or whether it is an indication that a critical mass has been reached that will take Catalunya to independence. Obviously I would like it to be the latter, but time will tell. Things have been progressing on a number of fronts: the unofficial referendums; the new provision that will allow for an official referendum if enough signatures are collected; and the possibility that enough pro-independence candidates will be elected to the Catalan Parliament this autumn for them to declare independence.
Of course Spain will not like that, but it seems unlikely that Madrid will be able to use the same tactics as they did with Euskadi (the Basque Country) a few years ago, for the main reason that Catalunya is not tainted with the same shadow of violence. The choice was for Spain to accommodate a more autonomous Catalunya within a looser Spanish state (perhaps in a federal arrangement) or risk losing Catalunya completely. Spain has made the decision that it wants to be the Spain it is rather than change. It now remains to be seen whether the people of Catalunya will acquiesce to it or decide go their own way as an independent nation.
I won’t claim that what I’ve written before on Catalunya is anything but pro-independence, but if people want to read my take on the situation as it has developed, a selection of posts is
here on Syniadau.
“Spain has decided that it went too far”…Spain will not like that…Spain has made the decision that it wants to be the Spain it is rather than change”
Wasn’t this the ruling of an independent court? Your characterisation implies either political interference in, or popular influence over, the court’s deliberations. In my brief reading of events in Spain, I haven’t seen any such accusations.
In any case it strikes me that there are many shades of opinion on this matter within Spain. If someone started talking about “the UK” or “England” deciding to frustrate Welsh devolution, particularly over a judicial ruling of some sort, we’d find it odd.
Implications? Accusations?
Not at all, Adam. Most countries comprise an executive, legislature and judiciary. So a decision by the judiciary would be every bit as much a decision of the state as a decision by the executive or legislature. Perhaps more so, since the judiciary very often has the final word.
But that said, the Constitutional Tribunal is slightly detached from the judicial structure of Spain. Its function is to be the final arbiter of the Spanish Constitution. As Spain is defined by its constitution, it is probably best to describe this as a decision of the Spanish state.
“Most countries comprise an executive, legislature and judiciary”
So in other words, we’re talking about one branch of the state, not the state itself.
And when you talk of Spain deciding that it went too far you are conflating separate decisions made by very deliberately separate branches. Convenient shorthand, perhaps, but somewhat unhelpful.
“Remember, the Scots maintained the legal system which became an avenue for Scottish citizens to express said nationality (or at least acted as an achor).”
So did we until that Tudor bloke decided to “extirpe alle and singular sinister usages and customs” – ie Welsh Law. Which is what I meant – “Champagne Socialists” existed back then too – one promised the Welsh people the earth, until he got his feet under the Royal table of England. Kind of a Kinnock. Or Touhig.
@Duncan: “it wasn’t planned as a “last one to the Irish Sea buys the beers” kind of conquest”.
No, not until the the Norman kings, when it did become very much a “last one to the sea” – and there are a line of forts across Wales (north and south) to prove it.
No, after Glyndwr, and especially after the Tudors, there was a constant, repeated breaking down of Welsh spirit, Welsh sovereignty, Welsh laws, Welsh language, Welsh history, all very calculated and deliberate. It was citizenship by force, integration via brainwashing. We went from rulers, to friends/participants/equal-partners, so practically slaves by the industrial revolution.
We did rise up for better, in masses, forming unions etc, but it was very much WITHIN the English system – give us more money please Parliament, give us better conditions please Parliament – when what we should have been doing is saying “Give us a Parliament!”. We had the manpower. The Coal. We had a gun to the head of the Empire, but instead of pulling the trigger, we said “A seat in the house of lords? A country house? Yes please, m’lud”. Pathetic. Time and again. Pathetic.
And then we apologise for speaking Welsh, make excuses for wanting a Welsh medium school, uhm and ah about whether a Parliament would be a good thing… stop bleeting! Do it!
I have to reread Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia!
Al,
you made the point I obviously didn’t make clear enough. As john davies argued, the scots legal system became a centrifugal force for nationalist feelings, whereas in Wales it became the language. This was due to the constant undermine of our spirit, customs and laws.
I think the most interesting point of comparison is in their economic situation.
Catalonians see themselves as subsidising poorer parts of Spain and this is a major point of contention, at least with those I have met.
In contrast, Wales is in the exact opposite position of being subsidised by richer parts of the UK.
Would there be a far more ferocious appetite for Welsh independence if the shoe was on the other foot and Wales was subsidising the South East of England? Is economics a factor or is it just about culture and national identity?
Should there instead be a separatist movement developing within Kent?!
@rendunant: up until WWII (ish) is was Wales (and the North, and the colonies) that was subsidising the South-East! They can take it, but can’t give it?
Anyhow, we want to become self-sufficient, not sponging off the SE.
They can give it. They’re giving it now and you barely here them complain.
I’m (flippantly) asking if they should be so happy to give it. As it is, I’ve never seen them question it with any degree of seriousness.
“Should there instead be a separatist movement developing within Kent?!”
Because you never, ever hear a single word about the English subsidising the ‘Celts’ do you? lolz.
No, not really. Mutterings from the odd nutter on Question Time maybe, but there is hardly a serious, credible political movement.
What I’m pointing out is that the movement in Catalonia is based upon this issue at least in part, and I could understand why those in the South East do find it unfair that their success is being taxed and given to poorer areas.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the richer parts of the UK should be assisting the poorer parts of the UK and helping to develop them to a similar level. That’s more important than someone working in London being able to afford an extra trip to the South of France.
But at the same time, you could understand if there was a sense of resentment. This resentment is bubbling over into an independence movement in other places – all I’m asking is why is this not occuring in the rich parts of the UK and in fact many of the places seeking greater autonomy are poorer regions?
One for sure Catalan nationalism has had a long continuous history, it even has a name “Catalanism”, which began in the wake of the Carlist revolt. The Carlist pretender promised both the Catalans and Basques the restoration of their “Fueros”. However with the failure of that uprising it failed to materialize . You might find Stanley Payne’s “Spanish Revolution” and Orwell’s ” Homage to Catalonia” as useful background reading about Catalonia. Catalonia was the birth place of Spanish socialism which owed more to Bakunin than Marx. I have always wondered how things would have turned out for Cuba if Castro had been a Catalan instead of a Gallegan. I was surprised to read that Catalan nationalist governed Catalunia for 23 years after it gained autonomy.
Considering that Catalonia gained its autonomy in 1979, the same year as the Welsh and Scottish referendums. It would be interesting to speculate how things would have developed if Wales has voted Yes in 1979?
To suggest Wales is outrwight apathetic is wrong and an insult to all Welsh people. You can’t compare such regions with each other. There are many reasons one being economic another lingusitic and another being Franco, we may have had Maggie but she’s not quite that bad.
Catalonia is far more wealthy economically mainly due to the toursim industry. The vast majority of Catalan speak Catalan. Catalan has been easier to revive because it is very similar to spanish therefore not much effort has been needed. Where as Welsh is as different from English as Zulu is to Afrikaans. It is proof that those who speak Welsh are far more supportive of independence I would so far as say 80% of Welsh speaking people are strong supporters of Welsh self determination. Why? Because they generally feel more of an affiliation to Wales compared to others.
But to say Welsh people are apathetic is unfair. We have kept our language against all ods and our national Identity. What’s evidently Scottish or Irish about their identities? Compared to Welsh identity?
We have a strong sense of togetherness and community and are far more determined to protect our Culture compared to other nations. That’s hardly apathetic. Wales was and has been one of the most literate country in the world. Education is a strong definer of Welsh identity and the determined attitude to progress rather than jump off into the deep side.
“You can’t compare such regions with each other.”
Yes you can. I’ve just done so. In doing so, we can then have a discussion about why a protest about Catalonia’s constitutional status would prompt a million people to come out onto the streets of Barcelona, while the chances of a any such event prompting anything like that number in Cardiff would be unimaginable.
“Yes you can.”
Well, with a healthy amount of qualification Adam surely?
The question is “can Wales and Catalonia be compared?” To which the answer must surely be yes. Doing so may yield as many contrasts as similarities, but that’s the value of the exercise.
And of course the broader question remains – what makes a million people march in one place, and for anything like that sort of event to be a non-starter elsewhere? Adam Jones offers some answers. Having spoken to a couple of Catalans since the event, it’s clear the size of the demo surprised many people there as well as here.
Syniadau has produced some interested analyses on the subject. Worth paying his site a visit, I’d suggest.