The Week on WalesHome.org: As long as they beat the English?
Reflection — By WalesHome on June 7, 2010 9:30 am
The summit of Welsh sporting ambition?
HOW will you spend the World Cup? Perhaps you’ll do your best to ignore it, an ambition made a good deal easier by the onset of universally available multichannel television and an ever more varied and more pervasive internet. If however, you intend to tune into one of the globe’s great sporting spectacles the inevitable question of allegiance is bound to raise its head. For very many Welsh people, that’s an easy question to answer: whoever is playing the English. On all sorts of levels, this is just good, clean fun; if we can’t be tribal when it comes to national sporting occasions, when can we? It’s a tradition honed over many years, and which enriches the collective sporting culture of the nations of these islands. But there is perhaps also a darker side to it that speaks to an ongoing sense of inferiority towards our larger neighbours and which also closes down our horizons.
In that other great Welsh sporting passion – rugby – the national team has once again become more the equal of England, while remaining true to its thrillingly expansive and flowing style. With such a team Welsh fans ought to aspire to nothing short of world domination – and yet the primary objective still seems to be to secure annual victory against the English in the Six Nations. Is this, and our imminent conversion to temporary American, Algerian and Slovenian citizenship really just harmless fun, or does it challenge that notion of a modern, confident and outward-looking Wales in a way we prefer not to think about? We’ll be reflecting on that later this week.
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Tags: football, identity, World Cup
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48 Comments
It’s good old harmless fun, and a way to indicate that actually, despite the barrage of TV ads beaming three lions and St. George’s flags into our living rooms, we’re happy that we’re Welsh. Supporting Anyone But England is an effective way of underlining and celebrating the fact that we’re different. Not superior, just different – in a way that makes this world of ours more interesting.
If there’s any inferiority about the Welsh, it’s in the eyes of London advertisers. Would the pro-England adverts on our screens have been any different had Wales qualified?
no, and had both Wales and England qualified, ASDA would still have pictures of England supporters around the store and Morrisons would still be urging us to “sign for England”
This quadrennial complaint about Welsh and Scottish people not supporting England is against the traditions of football.
At all levels of the game the neighbouring team are always the bitterest rivals and the local derbies are always the hardest fought matches. A couple of weeks ago when Cardiff was in the play off finals the citizens of Swansea were cheering on Blackpool rather than their fellow Welshmen. When Chelsea played Portsmouth in the FA Cup were football supporters from the Tottenham and Woolwich areas of London hoping for victory for the team from their City? Of course not!
I will be supporting anyone but the team next door because that is the done thing in football; if supporting anyone but the neighbours is good enough for City & United fans and Liverpool & Everton fans its good enough for me!
Interesting that you see no difference between national and club allegiance, Alwyn. An unusual position for a nationalist.
It’s strange that when other nations, notably the Scots, don’t support England (or rather actively support who’s playing them) it’s taken for granted but when the Welsh do the same its subject to analysis or immediately dismissed as xenophobic – strangely a charge which is never levelled at the Welsh in the rugby world, just the football one!
Alwyn is right, in football generally speaking you root for whoever is playing against your neighbours, and in our case that’s England. The barrage of St George’s flags in the shops and on cars and the media bombardment telling us to get behind the English merely strengthens the ABE attitude amongst the Welsh, and who can blame them for that!
Putting Cardiff-Swansea aside (Welsh clubs playing in the English system for historic reasons), Wales is already an independent country in football. There is no union in football terms- there is no such thing. There’s no British team at any level. For Welsh fans to support England would be as bizarre as French fans supporting Belgium. There just isn’t any historical precedent, there is no history of it.
I would add, neither do Welsh people generally actively support Ireland or Scotland on the basis of being ‘Celtic’, though fans of a nationalist persuasion probably would, in general for international football it’s – support Wales or don’t bother.
Even among Welsh fans that support English teams at club level, you generally will not find them supporting England. It is footballing tradition.
What interested me was the part that says, if we support teams against England, “does it challenge that notion of a modern, confident and outward-looking Wales in a way we prefer not to think about?”
A symptom of lack of confidence and lack of outwardness, in my opinion, would be if Welsh people choose to support England on the basis of ‘Britishness’. It is a sign of confidence to reject supporting England, not out of hostility to English people but because we do not need to hang on to their coat tails anymore.
The ‘Anyone But England’ stuff is a reaction against perceived English dominance of their neighbours, being expressed through sport where its harmless- people generally won’t vote at election times on a basis of ‘Anyone But England’ and that again is an expression of a lack of confidence and a lack of ambition and outwardness.
ABE is pretty much well-established around the UK. While up in Glasgow recently, a newly-made Scottish friend pointed out a T-shirt proudly bearing the acronym to me with a big grin and a “I’m going to get me one of those”.
However, he also added: “Do you know what the English have come back with? SNP – Scotland Not Playing. F***ing brilliant.” New-found friend works for the SNP (Scottish National Party, that is).
Watch this space for more football fun, kids.
There are traditions of Welsh fans supporting England. After the 1966 World Cup final, for example, the Western Mail ran an editorial which claimed it was a British victory not an English one. A variety of carnivals and village fetes were cancelled that day in Wales so people could watch England’s win.
But even now I question quite how far the ABE thing extends. In the Welsh-speaking community I grew up in most people loosely supported England in the world cup (although they would never do the same in rugby). I’d be really surprised if most Welsh people who support Premiership teams were particularly anti-England this world cup. None of the ones I know will be.
I suspect I’m fairly typical of a lot of Welsh fans who support Welsh clubs: I’ll hope England do well while the games are on but I’ll also get sick of the adverts and media hype and, afterwards, I’ll have a wry smile when they go out on penalties.
Overall, I think the Welsh are more than ambivalent than hostile to the England football team but proving it either way is impossible in the absence of any surveys.
“For Welsh fans to support England would be as bizarre as French fans supporting Belgium. There just isn’t any historical precedent, there is no history of it”
The article didn’t say anything about Welsh fans supporting England, Luke. It merely questioned what was at the root of many Welsh fans supporting Anyone But England.
I think Martin has a very good point – a lot of other Welsh fans may support England, but that support won’t run very deep.
I will give way to Martin’s comments, but I was talking about Welsh football fans rather than the Welsh populace in general. We do know for example that the Welsh populace generally does not support or take much interest in the Welsh national team (just look at attendances and TV viewing figures). Now that’s a situation that is internationally unusual and one i’d definitely put down to a lack of confidence.
I don’t know what to say to Martin’s “I’d be really surprised if most Welsh people who support Premiership teams were particularly anti-England this world cup. None of the ones I know will be”, because literally all of my friends that support Liverpool, Man Utd etc will be of the “ABE” mentality, perhaps not as vividly as the Cardiff City fans though. It’s purely anecdotal I suppose.
I think this is a good theme though and look forward to reading the articles on it.
Family ties mean I will be supporting France and Spain, thoughI must add I am not a fan of the English style of play.
Also after 11 years of living in England and the massive over the top expectations that explodes across the nation when England is in a major football tournament I do like to leave this small island for a bit of quiet and culture.
For the record French fans would support Belgium but only the French Belgiums
I can remember watching France v. Wales rugger in a pub in SE London a few years back and everyone was shouting for the Welsh , the whole pub was cockneys, The Wales team won 34-33 in the greatest match of Rugby ever, so don’t be so bloody miserly and give the England team a cheer!
For those interested in this kind of thing, here’s an overly long and possibly slightly pretentious academic paper analysing anti-Englishness amongst Swansea City fans.
http://revel.unice.fr/cycnos/index.html?id=6224
“For the record French fans would support Belgium but only the French Belgiums”
Good point Nick, a better example would be Americans wouldn’t support Canada, New Zealanders wouldn’t support Australia and Czechs wouldn’t support Slovakia ; )
The problem with the world cup is that anyone in Wales will notice that WE are treated as if we are in ENGLAND. Various shops have England flags on sale along with an array of England merchandise. Television adverts are flooded with ‘support England’ adverts and if you want to buy a Mars Bar you will be forced to buy one with a St George cross on it. Then of course we have all that and more rammed down our throats from the London newspapers. No wonder foreigners in Wales could be forgiven for thinking they were in England.
If only we could have so much pro-Wales propaganda when Wales is playing rugby.
Having read the interesting article by Martin Johnes, I feel I must point out that he includes the cardinal sin of stating that Wales is a ‘principality’.
Wales is not a principality. A part of Wales WAS a principality but this ceased to exist in 1536. HRH The Prince of Wales has no role in the government nor administration of Wales.
The term ‘principality’ is patronising term often used by the English to look down upon Wales, a term adopted by those ignorant of the constitutional status of Wales.
I just checked and to my shame Hedd Wyn is right, the article does contain one use of the word Principality. I don’t know if that was me or the copy editor but I would agree calling Wales a Principality wrong. Wales is a Principality in the sense it has a Prince but to use the term as shorthand for contemporary Wales is silly and I apologize.
“A lot of other Welsh fans may support England, but that support won’t run very deep.”
Without wishing to spoil a later article that may appear on here, I think that is pretty bang on how I feel.
“Even among Welsh fans that support English teams at club level, you generally will not find them supporting England. It is footballing tradition. ”
Sorry, what footballing tradition, other than anecdotal ones, are you talking about?
To argue that football, because we have a distinct Welsh team, with no ‘British lions’ in football is somehow more nationally divided doesn’t add up to people who actually play the game. All young Welsh footballers of talent, apart from those at the four (if you count Newport County, who do have an excellent academy) are involved and ply their trade in an England and Wales system. They compete for contracts in a global system.
I know, I was one of those kids.
In fact I would argue that international football actually means less to the average football than rugby fan, because it is far more club orientated than rugby. It is why Cardiff City often get a bigger gate than the Wales international team.
Ask your Cardiff/Swansea city supporter whether they want to go up to the Premiership or Wales qualify for a World Cup? Or Wrexham/Newport County whether they want to get league status or Wales to qualify for a World Cup?
However, I bet if you asked an Ospreys fan a similar question, you would get a different answer.
“Sorry, what footballing tradition, other than anecdotal ones, are you talking about?”
Ok then, go to CCS next match day and ask “who is supporting the English national team?”
Or go on CCMB right now and look at all the people with ‘Anyone But England’ as their Avatar.
Yes the majority opinion will actually not be “anti-England” but will be indifference, including indifference to the Welsh national team itself.
But here is my point, in international football, there is no tradition of Welsh football supporters, supporting the England national team.
“In fact I would argue that international football actually means less to the average football than rugby fan, because it is far more club orientated than rugby.”
Yes I agree and I made that point myself a few comments above…
“Ask your Cardiff/Swansea city supporter whether they want to go up to the Premiership or Wales qualify for a World Cup?”
Yes which is why I wrote ‘We do know for example that the Welsh populace generally does not support or take much interest in the Welsh national team (just look at attendances and TV viewing figures).’
So the point I originally made was-
“Even among Welsh fans that support English teams at club level, you generally will not find them supporting England. It is footballing tradition. ”
I don’t know how any football fan could claim that Cardiff and Swansea supporters, or even Liverpool or Man Utd supporters that are Welsh, have a history of supporting England when Wales doesn’t play. It certainly doesn’t match even the most cursory read of CCMB or Planet Swans.
If I end up with a group of English friends watching a World cup the final in which England is playing , I’ll want England to win. But it won’t bother me if they lose.
If I end up with a group of Dutch friends watching a World cup the final in which the Netherlands are playing , I’ll want the Netherllands to win. But it won’t bother me if they lose.
If I had a group of Paraguayan friends and ended watching a World cup the final in which Paraguay was playing , I’d want Paraguay to win. But it wouldn’t bother me if they lost.
and so on
The England football team is just another national football team.
I am adding this to illustrate how sometimes the “anyone but England” rivalry is a good thing.
After the WDL/EDL demo in Cardiff at the weekend, the organiser explained in his blog why he felt they failed to get the hundreds if not thousands they were expecting. Given it read like a script from a Danny Dyer film it took a couple of goes to read it through but to summarise, WDL/EDL are based on, and recruited from football fans/hooligans/crews. The Swansea group had been banned weeks ago as they could never work alongside the Cardiff group. The organiser, himself English, acted as mediator between Cardiff supporters, and various groups from Bristol Swindon and other parts of England and Scotland. this however broke down on the day as on stepping off the train the Welsh and English supporters immediately set about each other. The Cardiff group (soul crew) although heavily influenced by past members of Combat 18 (an extreme and very violent ultra right wing sub group from a few years back), were in the authors opinion more comfortable to stand with the antifascists than with any English supporters let alone anyone from Swansea, and were actively sending away any of their colleagues. The group from Swindon got out of their minibus only to be attacked by Welsh supporters and get straight back in and drove home to Swindon. Most of the chants he recalls aren’t repeatable here but were in the main based on anti Welsh and anti English sentiment.
So if this is the outcome of Welsh supporters cheering for America next week then I’m all for it.
Like Illtyd I’m also surprised at Martin saying “I’d be really surprised if most Welsh people who support Premiership teams were particularly anti-England this World Cup. None of the ones I know will be as, although I also can only give anecdotal evidence, the vast, vast majority of people I know will be actively supporting whoever plays against England, and by that I also mean people who aren’t really into football. I would say most Welsh people (notice NOT ‘people who live in Wales’) don’t support England at the World Cup and don’t want them to win it.
In saying that the vast majority of people I know are Welsh-speakers from the north-west and west of Wales. I know for a fact from my home village and most of the surrounding area people will actively, almost passionately, support whoever plays England, and its not a coincidence.
People are sick to death of seeing England flags on cars and in shops in even the Welshest part of Wales, furthest away from England in every sense, and this manifests itself as hostility towards England’s sporting teams.
Having said that, I’m sure in other parts of Wales support for England is quite widespread. You won’t find that in Scotland, so in a way it subtley shows how divided a nation Wales still is.
Adam Higgitt June 7, 2010 • 2:30 pm
.Ineresting that you see no difference between national and club allegiance, Alwyn. An unusual position for a nationalist.
I have never quite understood the equation between political nationalism and sporting nationalism.
I believe that Wales would be a more prosperous and equitable nation if it was an Independent country!
II find the idea that my country is better than your country because a dozen or so of my compatriots can bat, throw or kick a ball better than yours can rather ridiculous.
It’s a game of kicking pig’s bladders, it isn’t important, support England or Anyone But England, who cares!
What’s wrong with enjoying the tournament as a fun occasion rather than one of political significance?
Alwyn
I take the opposite view. As someone who has always taken Einstein’s view of nationalism, I think there’s a good case for suggesting that sport is an arena in which these infantile impulses can find harmless release. If you have to be a nationalist, do it on the terraces. Then be something more sensible for the things that matter, i.e politics.
“Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind” – Albert Einstein.
If so you’ve got a dose.
As I’d be surprised if Einstein had decided to uniquely exclude UK/GB nationalism from his diagnosis.
Sorry, CapM, but you obviously don’t know me at all.
True . I can only go on my perceptions of what I read here.
You seem to me to be a supporter of the UK/GB being the nation state rather than England, Scotland, and Wales being separate nation states.
My logic is that if we describe those who favour Scotish and Welsh nation states as nationalists then someone who favours a UK/GB nation state is a nationalist also.
Your party and others with a UK/GB remit may not like that a nationalistic element has been identified in your political being but it was inevitable once Scottish and Welsh nationalism reached a level of “legitimancy ” where those nationalisms are a real option for the people in Scotland and Wales. The other nationalism being the UK/GB variety offered by Labour, Conservatives and LibDems.
As far as you are concerned one is obliged to either be a supporter of the UK/GB on nationalist grounds, or to be a supporter of independence for its constituent nations on similar grounds.
You are, of course, indulging in one of the oldest debating tricks in the world – the false dichotomy.
I’m saying if one has the UK/GB as one’s choice of nation state then that is where one’s nationalism lies. There may be other choices besides UK/GB, Scottish and Welsh nationalism but I’m not aware that Labour, Conservatives or LibDems have chosen any other besides the UK/GB one.
I’m not attempting to subject you to a false dichotomy, from what I interpret on this blog you seem to be a supporter of the UK/GB as nation state. I realise that you might well have explained why this is not so at an earlier date. Perhaps you could point me to where I can get a better idea of where you stand on this.
“For Welsh fans to support England would be as bizarre as French fans supporting Belgium. There just isn’t any historical precedent there is no history of it.”
Not the same at all. Nearly 25% of people living in Wales are English god knows how many of English descent. So surely we can expect to see many of these people wanting England to do well? I am – I think – of Welsh stock (you can never be sure), but want England to win.
CapM your argument makes no sense. A German living in Germany who considers the German federalist state the best way of organising affairs is not necessarily a Nationalist. The same goes for the UK.
Germany is a nation state. It has a federalist system but as with all such nation states that are federations (I think) ultimate soveriegnty lies with the centalised government.
There are probably very good reasons why Germans prefer not refer to themselves as Nationalists. In the UK we have no need to be similarly sensitive.
The UK is far from being a federal state and as far as I’m aware the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Labour, LibDems and Conservatives aren’t proposing that we become one.
What we do have is a UK nation state with Labour, Conservatives ad LibDem parties confirming therir commitment to retaining this arrangement and SNP and Plaid Cymru advocating that Scotland and Wales become nation states.
Nationalists all.
CapM
Your premise is defective, as I have already said. A more elaborate defective premise is still a defective premise.
You seem to believe that a nationalist is one who commends any sort of state organisation, for any reason. Presumably you believe that somebody like Jean Monnet was a European nationalist. Perhaps you think that someone who believes in a single world government is a global nationalist?
I believe, since you ask, in the organisation of the delivery of services and state-like functions at the smallest possible effective level. You ask for somewhere where I described this in more detail: it’s here. I believe that the very idea of sovereignty in the monolithic way most nationalists (although, oddly, not necessarily Plaid, who have always had a slightly more far-sighted streak in them on this question) imagine it, to be an ideal whose time is largely passing. I also believe, for the record, that those who do have a continuing affiliation to Britain are not necessarily nationalists, and that this is a rather dreary tactic dreamt up in the backrooms of Ty Gwynfor to try and tar everyone with the same brush (though the fact that self-proclaimed nationalists wish to use the term as an abusive one to others speaks volumes for the lack of self-confidence within Welsh nationalism). But I also believe that, for the time being at least, the UK is the sovereign state, and that there needs to be some very good reasons in the current international order to alter this. At present, the vask bulk of people in Wales do not seem to think there is, and that’s good enough for me. Hopefully, by the time the question is visited in earnest, there will be something more imaginative on the table than the choice between a notionally independent UK or a notionally independent Wales.
So no, I’m not a nationalist. Not a British one, or a Welsh one or any other kind of one.
Once again you’ve passed up on the opportunity of outlining where you stand on this, and so establish a polychotomy.
And a polychotomy is required in order to substantiate your claim that the dichotomy I put forward was false.
I’ve gone into some detail below.
Is it Big Word Day on WalesHome today?
This is now officially over my head.
My previous post was submitted before you elaborated, hence the comment. Thanks for now elaborating and providing a link, persistance seems to pay off. I won’t comment on what you think I think but rather concentrate on commenting on what you said.
Localism as an alternative to nationalism does I think in theory offer the polychotomy I’ve been asking you to provide. However I think the reality is different, as you said in your article.
“We should be clear that we are not talking about your local County Borough Council taking possession of the nuclear launch codes. In those clear “higher state” functions business would operate as usual.
and “I can see a continuing need for state-level functions”.
Combined with your: “But I also believe that, for the time being at least, the UK is the sovereign state, and that there needs to be some very good reasons in the current international order to alter this”.
It seems pretty clear that your choice of nation state is the UK. Mine is Wales. And my choice of nation state does not per se limit preferences for further devolution and increased localisation any more than your’s does. So I’d contend that it’s prefectly possible to be at the same time and without contradiction a nationalist and a localist .
Finally you said “I’m not a nationalist. Not a British one, or a Welsh one or any other kind of one.” That’s quite some tightrope you’ve set yourself to walk.
“persistance seems to pay off”
My views were there all along. The pity is that you presumed to associate me with quite different views without taking the trouble to look them up.
“It seems pretty clear that your choice of nation state is the UK.”
No, that is not the case at all. The UK (for the time being at least) enjoys the status of sovereign state for the part of the world where I happen to live (and, I assume, you as well). I have not chosen this, and neither have you. The status is question is an “is” not an “ought”.
But even if either you or I had exercised any choice, your conclusion would still be wrong. Opting for a given unit of government does not make one a nationalist. It is a necessary but not sufficient preference.
“That’s quite some tightrope you’ve set yourself to walk”
Not if you take the trouble to actually acquaint yourself with my argument, rather than merely quoting back those parts that you think reinforce the conclusion you have already reached.
This – I’m not a nationalist – might be an option for someone who’s a passive recipient of whatever circumstances serve up.
However I think that stance is pretty much untenable should someone argue against an alternative nationalism whilst accepting/supporting/being content with the nation state arrangement they actually experience (overall that is as improvements can always be made to any system,)
The ideas of localism which you’ve put forward and qualified don”t provide an alternative to the nation state which to my thinking they would have to do in order to remove nationalism from the equation.
So now you say that to qualify to be a nationalist all someone has to do is either by completely apathetic or merely just fail to agitate against the constitutional arrangements into which they find themselves born, even if they disagree strongly with the only popular alternative?
If you really want to believe this is the definition of a nationalist, that’s your error.
You’ve said that I’ve presented you with a false dichotomy. ie UK/GB as the nation state or Wales et al as nation states.
You’ve said in your article on localism that you think there has to be some higher level at which the big issues are dealt with.
So what is this nation state (or other) that you’d prefer dealt with the big issues?
For arguments sake it’s an open choice not restricted to what;s currently on offer but realistic.
In addition if you could give an example of a small big issue which such a body would deal with it help would put things in perspective,
“You’ve said in your article on localism that you think there has to be some higher level at which the big issues are dealt with.”
No I didn’t. Please re-read the article and the subsequent debate.
You say in a reply that
“I can see a continuing need for state-level functions from which the local or sub-state level would not be able to secede without a formal constitutional process”
you also I think consider state level functions ending up being decided on a Pan european level
Now are you willing to address what I asked or are we to go round the houses again?
As I say, I think that and the remainder of the essay and subsequent discussion answers your questions.
Unfortunately, I do not believe you are interested in discussing this issue in good faith. Instead, I believe you are more interested in trying to get me to reiterate that which I have already stated in some futile bid to try and preserve your rather bizarre idea that We Are All Nationalists, even those such as me who clearly have no great affinity for any national tier of government (much less any of the other attributes universally associated with nationalism) and presumably by extension we are all As Bad As Each Other.
I find it an astonishing poverty of ambition that the only way Welsh nationalists such as yourself appear to be able to justify yourselves is to childishly complain that anyone who doesn’t want an independent Wales is a “British nationalist”. You should take a leaf out of the likes of John Dixon and Adam Price, individuals who are prepared to argue their nationalism positively and honestly, rather than engaging in utterly transparent sophistry and some sort of denigratory race to the bottom. I disagree with them and their ideology fundamentally, but I respect their integrity.
My article on localism is abundantly clear about a model that I believe has much to commend it. It starts from a very simple premise; that you root power at the most local level, and pool it upward according to agreement between the localities, rather than downward as at present. I was very clear in talking about state-level functions that some things (and I have given an example already) should be pooled and in some way “locked in” such as to prevent capricious withdrawal. This is just common sense for these functions, yet you appear determined to take this perfectly pragmatic part of what I argued, and attempt to twist it into some sort of emotional attachement to a nation-state which would then make me…a nationalist. It is ridiculous and boring and repetitive.
For some reason you seem to think that I think nationalism is bad. I’ve never said that . Are you sure you’re not projecting your own views onto me. Actually I think UK/GB nationalism is not negatiive and is as valid a preference as the Welsh variety. For me it’s a a case of which natiion state would be the better option.
Localism can I’m sure provide many advances but you’re still left with these state functions you mention. And lets be realistic nation states based on defined geographical areas are unlikely to cease to be.
So under your preferred system ,for someone living in Neath would state level functions(as you would define them) be adddresed in -
Neath; Cardiff; London; Brussels; somewhere else ________ fill in the blank.
An answer to the above would be illuminating ( so too iin a way would no answer)
And now I’m all posted out on this thread.
“you seem to think that I think nationalism is bad”
No. I think that you regard people who support the continuation of the British state as bad, and you imagine that calling them “British nationalists” in some way harms their preference and advances yours. In fact, all it does is intensify the negative connotations associated with nationalism per se, which is disproportionately bad for Welsh nationalism.
“For me it’s a a case of which natiion state would be the better option”
And that’s the problem with this thread encapsulated in a single sentence. I’ve tried to describe a new system qualitatively different from that of the familiar and conventional nation state, but you cannot seem to get past it.
“So under your preferred system ,for someone living in Neath would state level functions(as you would define them) be adddresed in -
Neath; Cardiff; London; Brussels; somewhere else ________ fill in the blank.”
One or more of the above, depending on the function.
I don’t think you can live in a state and claim you want that state to continue
then say you’re not a Nationalist. Everyone is a Nationalist of one kind or another. I for example am a Irish Nationalist insofar as I was born on the island of Ireland and support the Irish Republic as the Nation-State. I was born in the North of Ireland but i dont support the Continuation of the Northern State as its illegal and not what i want.
Whereas a Unionist is another type of Nationalist. He or she supports colonisation of the Irish Nation and should be stopped at all cost. But he or she is still a sort of Nationalist known as a British Nationalist.
The Democratic Unionist Party is sort of in between: a British Nationalist and a Ulster Nationalist it doesnt know where its going its also one of the Governing Parties of the North of Ireland the members are Usually Protestant fundamentalist
and Orange Order Marching bigots, Martin McGuinness is Ian Paisley’s best friend.
The Ulster Unionist Party are just a loss job and waste of time. They are a British Nationalist party and Orangist Party most of their members are
part of the Orange Order and linked to the English colonised party (Tories).
The P.U.P are linked to Terrorist Loyalist Armies.
The T.U.V are not worth a Vote or talking to.
The Alliance terms itself as ”none of the above” but is as Unionist as the Queen of England. You dont have to be Elvis to know that.
The Tories are English Colonising idiots who want to be elected so
they can run the Internal affairs of the North of Ireland even though it won’t even affect them.
Whereas Irish Nationalism is:
Sinn Fein one of the governing Parties of the North of Ireland. Most of its members are Catholics and Southerners. This is the better of all the Nationalist parties as they will not stand any shit the colonised (Unionist) give and will represent the people of Ireland equally there in Government across the island of Ireland. It’s deputy leader is Ian Paisley’s best friend.
The Social Democratic and Labour Party [S.D.L.P] is an Irish Nationalist Party. Its members comes mostly from Protestants and Disloyal Catholics. They act more like a Unionist party and chummy up to the Unionist. Their Leader is disloyal
to the Irish Nationalist Cause linked to the Irish and British Labour Parties.
Republican Sinn Fein doesn’t register as a Party instead runs without registering
even if the won they wouldn’t take their seats.
Fianna Fail is a Southern Party running probably next year in the Assembly Elections. They probably won’t get elected as Sinn Fein is the Irish Nationalist Party up north, so therefore we dont need a southern party interfering in the Internal Affairs of the North when the Decisions ain’t going to affect them. I don’t mind them interfering in the external affairs of the island of Ireland (including the north) which they do and it’s their right, but the internal affairs are for the Assembly alone to sort out and not for any other country whether that be England or southern Ireland you can be elected to a Government [NI Executive] and Parliament [NI Assembly] if the Decisions they make don’t affect you. Same goes for the Tories, Labour, or the Liberal Democrats and any other party not from the 6 counties.
Back to the footy – I hope Engerland do well.
The ABE thing strikes me as being a bit small time, belying a lack of confidence in ones own identity – why define yourself by your neighbours hoped for misfortune? Yes the flags on cars thing is a bit silly, highly pathetic and very irritating but I’ve got lots of English mates who will be thrilled if they do well and I would like to see Wazza becoming the ‘great’ player he can be – so why not wish them well? Afterall we’ve not had a sniff since ’58.
However they will lose to the Germans / Argentinians / Portuguese / whoever in the quarters on pens and rivers of tears will flow .