Is Plaid Cymru a serious nationalist party?
Bubble — By Robin Tilbrook on June 28, 2010 7:00 am
George Burrow disputed Monmouthshire's status as an English county. Today's English Democrats challenge its place as part of Wales
IT IS a truism that Welsh independence can only come about either with the consent of the English nation or by war! Thankfully there is little sign of any appetite by any Welsh nationalists to achieve a separation of the nations by war. That leaves the consent of the English nation as the only legitimate and viable option for Plaid Cymru.
We might therefore expect to see Plaid Cymru to spare no effort to encourage a greater sense of English nationalism, as it is obvious that a lingering sense of Britishness represents the greatest obstacle to the Welsh nationalist dreams of independence (or even the more modest aim of a full Welsh Parliament). It is worth recalling that as Conservative leader in 2000 William Hague, took part in a BBC Radio 4 programme called Brits in which he said: “English nationalism is the most dangerous of all forms of nationalism that can arise within the United Kingdom, because England is 5/6ths of the population of the UK…Once a part of a united country or kingdom that is so predominant in size becomes nationalistic, then really the whole thing is under threat.”
So if Plaid Cymru is serious, we would expect to see signs that they were not only leading the debate within Wales for independence, but also seeking to encourage the debate by all means available to them within England. In fact, what do we see?
When presented with the opportunity of leading the government of Wales and of having one of their leaders as the First Minister of Wales, Plaid Cymru stayed within their comfort zone by taking a few insignificant seats in the British unionist Labour led Welsh government. It became apparent that unlike the savvy Scottish National Party, which has merely positioned itself as being left of centre, Plaid Cymru had fallen into the trap of actually becoming leftist. So, when presented with such a golden opportunity for advancing their ostensible cause, they refused to take it simply because that would have meant sitting in the same cabinet with some Conservative Assembly members. Thus Plaid Cymru lost the kind of opportunity for the advancement of Welsh nationalism which might not present itself again for a generation.
And instead of campaigning against the Barnett Formula for being what it is, namely a unionist electoral bribe, created with a view to using English taxpayers’ money to bribe Welsh voters to vote for whichever unionist party is in power at Westminster, Plaid Cymru’s Welsh Assembly members are seen actively campaigning for an even bigger hand out!
Last but not least in Wales, when offered the opportunity to campaign for a referendum to decide democratically whether the people of Monmouthshire are Welsh or English, Plaid Cymru remain unwilling to engage in a political debate which might be one of the most significant in getting people on both sides of our national borders to focus on their developing sense of Welshness or Englishness.
In England, we find an almost startling absence of activity by Plaid Cymru to promote their cause. While Alex Salmond and the SNP often make controversial remarks helpfully stirring up English nationalism, do we ever hear Plaid Cymru’s voice? To my knowledge, not once.
Also in England, the Scottish National Party has supported the English Constitutional Convention; The Chairman of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, Canon Dr Kenyon Wright, has even spoken, supported and become a member of the English Constitutional Convention and helped the Campaign for an English Parliament (CEP). There has however been no support whatsoever from Plaid Cymru or from Welsh nationalists.
The only English nationalist party comparable to Plaid Cymru, campaigning for an English Parliament, Government and First Minister, with at least the same powers as the Scottish ones, is the English Democrats.
In the EU elections last year the English Democrats stood for the first time across the whole of England and despite our tiny campaign budget got 279,801 votes (more than twice Plaid Cymru’s 126,702). In this year’s General Election we stood 107 candidates (more than Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party put together). So you might think that a serious Welsh nationalist party would be making every effort to help our progress and thereby build a constituency in England that would welcome constitutional change for Wales. Instead Plaid Cymru’s leadership has refused to even meet us.
This is in stark contrast with our friendly relations with the Scottish National Party. We have been pleased to welcome the SNP’s Angus MacNeil MP to speak at a recent Annual Party Conference and our Vice Chairman was welcomed by leaders of the SNP in Edinburgh and her hand was shaken, during a BBC Newsnight programme, by Alex Salmond.
The reason for this refusal, that was given by their leadership, was that Plaid Cymru would not work with a political party that was “Eurosceptic”. This confirmed all my suspicions about Plaid Cymru’s ineffectiveness as a nationalist party for Wales. It would have been impertinent, if they had been genuine Welsh nationalists, to worry about the attitude of English nationalism towards the EU. Also it showed that they were not interested in developing the English dimension to the debate, nor yet again are they willing to step outside their ideologically, hide bound comfort zone, in order to develop their ostensible cause.
When Nigel Farage, one of the leaders of the British nationalist UKIP appeared on Question Time in Wales on 25th February 2010, he was foolishly insulted by Elfyn Llwyd MP, who claimed that Farage’s British nationalist comments showed him up as being “a little Englander”! Mr Llwyd also spent much of the programme cozying up to Labour’s, Peter Hain. Doesn’t Mr Llwyd even know the difference between British and English nationalism?
In the event during the 2010 General Election, far from supporting us in England, Plaid Cymru supported the internationalist, socialist and Europhile, Green Party!
In the coming Welsh Assembly elections, the English Democrats will be standing in the South East Welsh Assembly region where we will continue our campaign for the people of traditional Monmouthshire to have a referendum on a question that only a modern, democratic, nationalist party could pose i.e. do the people of Monmouthshire wish to be English or Welsh? Because the media coverage rules require it, we shall also be standing in the Regional lists throughout Wales on the ticket “English Democrats – for a Proper Welsh National Parliament”. My sincere hope is that either Plaid Cymru will support us in this campaign or that a more effective Welsh nationalist party will emerge.
When a political party acts in a manner which does not further its ostensible agenda and supports other parties which are ostensibly hostile to that agenda, as Plaid Cymru does, I think it is legitimate to raise the question that I have in the heading of this article: is Plaid Cymru a serious nationalist party for Wales and the Welsh Nation? In my view Wales deserves a serious nationalist party, just as England deserves its serious nationalist party and so does Scotland. Scotland and England have theirs but where, oh where is Wales’? I leave you with a proverbial quotation from St Matthew’s Gospel, Chapter 7, verse 20: “By their fruits ye shall know them”.
Tags: constitutional reform, England, nationalism, Plaid Cymru
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268 Comments
Not that I know of Toque, just shieldwall.
Thanks, J. Since they’ve had a day in the sun on our site, I wonder if any of them have the balls to let me write for one of their sites? Quite happy to write on a subject like – why are the English Democrats so sensitive? Why do they believe the tabloids so much? Do they want to wind the clock back 50 years? Why are they so antagonistic? Why are they the only ones allowed a definition of nationalism?
If Steve Uncles wants to email me with an offer, my email address is duncan@waleshome.org. Having whinged that we are now censoring them (I thought I made my case clear above – Steve Uncles is welcome back on here when he explains allegations of racism against him), let’s see how much the EDs practice their democracy.
I would of course have approached them myself. But – surprise, surprise – they are almost impossible to reach. I’ll report back when I have an offer.
Thank you to those who have supported Cornwall’s right to greater self-determination and recognition.
Notice again how the EDP are quick to investigate constitutional law in Monmouth and question its integration into Wales. When it comes to the Duchy of Cornwall, however, they are quick to dismiss constitutional law and happy to wheel out the old ‘Cornwall has been English for a thousand years’ bull.
This site takes a different approach to Cornwall’s legal status and is a must for anybody interested in the UK’s ‘constitution’: http://duchyofcornwall.eu/
As I said before, two-faced and aggressive.
Still no come backs or answers from anyone then?
Good luck to you all getting the answers you want.
The reason you never hear “[n]ever hear Plaid Cymru’s voice”, or much else from Welsh nationalists is because there is a virtual media censorship when it comes to anything that could be construed as the Welsh voice for freedom.
However, if you care to disparage or ridicule Welsh political aspirations you will have no trouble amplifying your message. The British media will practically put you on their shoulders and parade you around town.
I speak from experience. The bias in British media is staggering.
Media censorship of the “Welsh voice of freedom”?
Do we know how often the “Welsh voice for a choice and the truth” is censored? In some local papers you can’t have your say about anything which might upset certain Plaid Cymru MPs or AMs. Even if it relates to their ability to ask questions in Parliament which have no relevance within with their constituencies, or ask what their opinion is on this missing “Devolution Dividend”.
Nationalist parties are their own worst enemies, they end up looking like one legged men in a bum kicking competition.
@Evan: depends where you live. If you dare to suggest a nationalist viewpoint (or, god forbid, support a Plaid AM/MP/Councillor) in my local press, every letter page for the next two weeks are filled with Labour attackdogs slagging you off. That isn’t paranoia (although it is quite amusing).
Is it safe to bump this?
http://tredelyn.blogspot.com/2010/08/more-normans.html
Yikes!
May I just add, how can the English Democrats question the seriousness of Plaid Cymru as a nationalist party? Plaid Cymru is a party for all of Wales and that includes Gwent/Monmouthshire. The ‘Monmouthshire’ issue is one of the biggest reasons why Plaid or Welsh nationalists can’t and won’t support a party like EDP. Gwent has always been Welsh, and a referendum wouldn’t change that. Even if EDP won a referendum and Gwent came under England, all that would tell you is the region is full of colonists and it would create a Northern Ireland situation. You try telling the people of Newport or Cardiff West they are English. The only reason many people around the border see themselves as English is because they are constantly exposed to English media and have been cut off from Welsh culture and media, through no choice of there own. So how can you say we are less nationalist then EDP when we are trying to defend part of our country that you want to take from us. I wholeheartedly support the English nationalist cause, but I can’t support a party that wants to take part of Wales into England. Gwent is Welsh and Cornwall is Cornish. If you want Gwent and Cornwall to be part of England, why not the rest of Wales, after all, Wales has come under English rule for 700 years. As you see ‘right of conquest’ is not a reason to claim part all whole countries, that makes you no different then British nationalists like the UK parties. This island is home to 4 nations; Wales, Cornwall, England and Scotland and as we share an island and history, we must work together in peace, but that can not happen until the union is dissolved and we are all free and respect the boundaries/ languages and cultures of our own and every one else’s countries. I hope the EDP correct this part of there manifesto and that we can work together in the future. If not, like you pray Wales gets a real nationalist party, I too pray the same for England. God bless our isles and nations and may we all be free and prosper! Fe godwn ni eto! There will always be an England! Alba gu brath! Kernew bys vyken! Erin go bragh!
Dafydd
Thank you for your posting.
I don’t think you can have read my article. Plaid Cymru have done nothing to support the English Nationalist Cause. The leaders of Plaid Cymru have made it a pro EU, internationalist, socialist party and not a nationalist party.
Monmouthshire is a side issue, but a potentially useful one for democratic nationalists, as it would allow people to democratically choose their national identity – something neither the far left nor the far right would wish to allow.
Robin Tilbrook
English Democrats
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/394997.stm
UK Politics
‘English votes on English laws’
Plaid Cymru said Mr Hague’s suggestion that Welsh MPs should no longer be allowed to vote on matters affecting England “smacked of a retreat into a narrow and sectarian form of English nationalism”.
Plaid Cymru are treading a fine line. Nationalism in Wales is a lot weaker in Wales than it is in Scotland due to our greater integration into England over the years. Sometimes I believe PC should be more vocal but I understand the fear of alienating people.
May I ask why Plaid Cymru should even support/help the English Democrats with anything?
1. They are a party for wales and the welsh no1 else.
2. Since your trying to take the Welsh land (Monmouthshire) why should they help you were would it stop feel like taking Cardiff and Wrexham to.
3. Plaid Cymru has help Wales with loads of thing and are better then any over Welsh Party
So maybe if the English Democrats stop trying to overpower everyone who isn’t english you would get their support until then I say good on Plaid Cymru I wouldn’t support you ever
Who is “George Burrow”?
Plaid like all the Welsh parties have their faults, but at least they are on home soil. Simply come to Monmouth, or any other town, on Saturday 13th August 2011, Wales V England Go to the pubs, go to the rugby club – count the red jerseys and white watching the game. I see it every year. I see the sadness in everyone’s eyes if Red lose (1). Have you ever been in deepest Historic Monmouthshire/Gwent?
No election was ever held in Historic Monmouthshire or in any part of Wales over joining England over the last 800 years . We were all annexed in Wales as a job lot by Anglo-Norman violence. Careless omission from the second Act of Union does NOT put us in England instead. It just made it necessary to keep putting Monmouthshire explicitly in any following Welsh acts. They were as bad at law writing then as they are now. Llancloudy, Llangarron, Welsh Bicknor, Welsh Newton are unambiguously in England so they had a clue on how move territory properly across the border if they wanted to.
The only democratic process used to sort out the border was the 1974 Act (2) and WE ALL VOTED for those politicians then, not UNDEMOCRATIC, legally incompetent Henry the 8th, who cared more for nobbling marcher lords than the Welsh people. It simply tidied up the mess of his 2nd act of Union. Did we see on TV the disenfranchised rioting in the streets of Newport and Monmouth crying to be put into England when it happened? Are they still marching in the Street. Even in the most English of the towns, Monmouth, your candidates always has a third of the vote that Plaid Cymru gets and the difference is increasing. Nobody is interested in the issue. When are you going to realise this?
What in 2011, after 800 years of English governance, has London given us besides having to pay a heavy toll on our major export route the Severn Bridge and grass covered spoil tips in the west of the old county? Well…“Over one in ten children in Wales live in severe child poverty” Source: Save The Children. You want us to stay with you?
On that Saturday, speak to the mass of people in Abergavenny, Bryn Mawr, Cwmbran, Ebbw Vale, Tredegar, Blaenafon, Pontypool (Oh so English Names) and say, “hey chaps you’re English, come and join us.” The answer will be, “what yer on butt? (Trans: Interesting, what hallucinogenic pills have you just taken my good man).
Follow Plaid, a real nationalist party, and concentrate on getting devolved government for England and Kernow. They have nothing to learn from you. They have helped achieved a measure of power for our country unlike some talking shops.
Where is our historic county of Monmouthshire? I’ll go with the heart of the people (1), with democracy (2) and the unpronounceable place names with ‘ll’, ‘ch’ and ‘w /’y’ acting as a vowel that are vastly in the majority. Look them up… they cover the map you had printed on your 2011 Welsh election pamphlet. .Ry’n ni yma o hyd, er gwaetha pawb a phopeth. (Trans: We’re still here, despite the worst of everyone and everything.
In the 21st Century,food and water will be at a premium. Nuclear proliferation is a very real threat to world peace. We face ecological disaster.All these things combined or on their own could result in the annihilation of the human species.This is not an exaggerration as any informed individual will know. Bearing the foregoing in mind, surely the coming together of all nations, all peoples and all cultures is the only way for our species to survive.Equitable and agreed distribution of all resources on a worldwide scale the only way forward.
Nationalism of any ilk,colour or creed, with all its hateful and barbaric consequenes will only see the end of us once and for all. It is a blind fool who believes otherwise.
Mr Ruck – where do you stand on the EEC?
Interesting blog with much to commend it. In response to your question as to whether or not Plaid Cymru is a nationalist party the answer is an unequivocal no. Genuine nationalist parties are primarily concerned with the nation – and for those whose technical grasp of such matters is weak, a nation is a people, irrespective of the state in which they live. If you peruse Plaid Cymru’s manifesto and overall record you will find no nationalist aspirations, and indeed the linchpin of any genuine European nationalist party – language – is completely absent from Plaid Cymru’s list of policies.
Plaid Cymru is a statist body, it wishes to have a separate state, whose population is made up of anybody who considers himself ‘Welsh’ – there are no further requirements. Statism is of course an American construct, whose goal of creating pure states – i.e. inhabited by individuals with no common bond other than the state itself – is utterly alien to European mores and culture. These startling concepts were part and parcel of the American legacy – hegemony is a more realistic description – exported to Europe by the USA following WWII when Uncle Sam set about re-educating us ignorant and barbarous Europeans, and is the cultural legacy that has dominated Plaid Cymru since the 1970’s.
Incidentally, this was not the cultural goal of the party’s founder, Saunders Lewis, a genuine nationalist in the European mould and an intellectual giant in comparison with the insects that currently populate the upper echelons of the party.
As a statist body Plaid Cymru – like every other main stream party in Europe – is very supportive of bodies that promote and strengthen the state as an institution, thus its toadying to the EU mafia. Jobs for the boys? Of course, what else did you expect – representation?
As for links with the EDP I would tend to sympathise with those who are uneasy with your comments regarding Gwent – I believe the term for what you’re angling at is irredentism. I notice you fail to mention referenda for Oswestry – England or Wales? – Berwick – Scotland or England? – or the Channel islands – France or England? If you want to play dangerous games the blade cuts both ways.