Comments on: Trust the people: time to devolve from the Assembly http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/ Independent analysis from and about Wales Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:59:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: The cost of diversity – Freedom Central http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-8990 The cost of diversity – Freedom Central Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:44:35 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-8990 [...] has shown that any sort of structural re-ordering does not tend to deliver in that way. However, the argument that we should be having fewer and bigger Councils doing more and having greater powers and responsibilities is certainly enhanced by this story. [...] [...] has shown that any sort of structural re-ordering does not tend to deliver in that way. However, the argument that we should be having fewer and bigger Councils doing more and having greater powers and responsibilities is certainly enhanced by this story. [...]

]]> By: Ian http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7746 Ian Sun, 07 Mar 2010 21:29:23 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7746 Peter, You are wrong to suggest that Plaid's natural instinct is to centralise-far from it. The Health re-organisation had to take place because the re-organisation you signed up to with Labour when in coalition, was unaffordable and an admistrators charter. However, some of your thoughts on how we manage the inevitable Local Government re-organisation are interesting and welcome. At long last, we are all talking about the inevitable and how we do this while holding up local demoracy, is a huge challenge. Thanks to devolution, gone are the days when such decisions are made by a meddling Redwood, basing some of his decisions on spite and not community needs. Peter,
You are wrong to suggest that Plaid’s natural instinct is to centralise-far from it. The Health re-organisation had to take place because the re-organisation you signed up to with Labour when in coalition, was unaffordable and an admistrators charter.
However, some of your thoughts on how we manage the inevitable Local Government re-organisation are interesting and welcome. At long last, we are all talking about the inevitable and how we do this while holding up local demoracy, is a huge challenge.
Thanks to devolution, gone are the days when such decisions are made by a meddling Redwood, basing some of his decisions on spite and not community needs.

]]> By: Duncan Higgitt http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7700 Duncan Higgitt Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:27:13 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7700 Apologies, Peter. My use of the term mismanagement is closer to the private sector definition, rather than suggesting any financial impropriety in office, and I'm sure you are right when you say that there is fault on either side of the funding equation. As such, I stand by my last point. Apologies, Peter. My use of the term mismanagement is closer to the private sector definition, rather than suggesting any financial impropriety in office, and I’m sure you are right when you say that there is fault on either side of the funding equation. As such, I stand by my last point.

]]> By: Peter Black http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7699 Peter Black Sat, 06 Mar 2010 21:27:17 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7699 Duncan, your view of the annual sparring match that takes place between local councils and the Welsh government is a bit unfair. Whilst it is true that councils blame government for not giving them enough resources, it is also true that government ministers use councils as a whipping boy and blame them for all sorts of things, not least a failure to deliver government policy that they have failed to fund properly. This is really the subject of another piece but part of the problem is that since Heseltine's abolition of the poll tax and Walker's peculiar Welsh solution to how this would be paid for, 80% of a council's income comes from central government. This leaves them very little room for manoeuvre. The problem is exacerbated by the small size of many councils thus limiting the scope for efficiency savings and the build up of sufficient reserves. Thus when the downturn hits it hits badly. To be fair, in the current funding round there are very few examples of council leaders complaining of insufficient funding. They recognise that they got the same uplift that the Assembly did. All are making difficult decisions but are justifying that by pointing at the downturn and the role of central government in causing that. I believe that this is reasonable. As for the Icelandic banks there were a few local councils affected by this but there is little evidence that in the short term at least it has had much impact on their finances. Most have found ways of managing the loss and are working to get the money back. The pressures that councils face are much more fundamental than that and include loss of income due to the recession, the cost of the teacher's pay award, additonal funding pressures as a result of government legislation, the cost of pensions and many more factors. If you have evidence of mismanagement you should notify the Wales Audit Office. Duncan, your view of the annual sparring match that takes place between local councils and the Welsh government is a bit unfair. Whilst it is true that councils blame government for not giving them enough resources, it is also true that government ministers use councils as a whipping boy and blame them for all sorts of things, not least a failure to deliver government policy that they have failed to fund properly.

This is really the subject of another piece but part of the problem is that since Heseltine’s abolition of the poll tax and Walker’s peculiar Welsh solution to how this would be paid for, 80% of a council’s income comes from central government. This leaves them very little room for manoeuvre. The problem is exacerbated by the small size of many councils thus limiting the scope for efficiency savings and the build up of sufficient reserves. Thus when the downturn hits it hits badly.

To be fair, in the current funding round there are very few examples of council leaders complaining of insufficient funding. They recognise that they got the same uplift that the Assembly did. All are making difficult decisions but are justifying that by pointing at the downturn and the role of central government in causing that. I believe that this is reasonable.

As for the Icelandic banks there were a few local councils affected by this but there is little evidence that in the short term at least it has had much impact on their finances. Most have found ways of managing the loss and are working to get the money back. The pressures that councils face are much more fundamental than that and include loss of income due to the recession, the cost of the teacher’s pay award, additonal funding pressures as a result of government legislation, the cost of pensions and many more factors.

If you have evidence of mismanagement you should notify the Wales Audit Office.

]]> By: Duncan Higgitt http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7691 Duncan Higgitt Sat, 06 Mar 2010 19:13:43 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7691 Michael, you're confusing two functions. The National Assembly is a legislature, while the Welsh Government is the executive. In addition, local authorities have the latitude within their own budgets to prioritise. Their latest favourite excuse - "The Welsh Government hasn't given us enough money" is as old as time itself, but they think it has been given added impetus because of impending, expected cuts to public services. It's rather convenient, because it means they don't have to explain away their own individual mismanagement of public funds, such as the Icelandic banks fiasco. If we want to get through this recession, we all need to stop blaming one another and start thinking in new ways when it comes to delivering services. Michael, you’re confusing two functions. The National Assembly is a legislature, while the Welsh Government is the executive.

In addition, local authorities have the latitude within their own budgets to prioritise. Their latest favourite excuse – “The Welsh Government hasn’t given us enough money” is as old as time itself, but they think it has been given added impetus because of impending, expected cuts to public services. It’s rather convenient, because it means they don’t have to explain away their own individual mismanagement of public funds, such as the Icelandic banks fiasco.

If we want to get through this recession, we all need to stop blaming one another and start thinking in new ways when it comes to delivering services.

]]> By: Michael Cridland http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7689 Michael Cridland Sat, 06 Mar 2010 18:04:52 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7689 "Centralising social services and education can also be a good thing. Why? Because the National Assembly is an elected body while councils are not." Poppycock! I would not trust the WAG to run its own daycare unit. For example, when the issue of asbestos came up in Welsh schools, Carwyn Jones' response was this was for local councils to deal with. Which is true, but do they have th money to deal with this? No they do not. “Centralising social services and education can also be a good thing. Why? Because the National Assembly is an elected body while councils are not.”

Poppycock! I would not trust the WAG to run its own daycare unit. For example, when the issue of asbestos came up in Welsh schools, Carwyn Jones’ response was this was for local councils to deal with. Which is true, but do they have th money to deal with this? No they do not.

]]> By: senn http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7666 senn Sat, 06 Mar 2010 01:37:53 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7666 Interesting survey of the possible future of local councils. Being also an instinctive democrat like yourself I would see it differently to you on this one. Centralising social services and education can also be a good thing. Why? Because the National Assembly is an elected body while councils are not. Jane Hutt's education policy has brought much better schools with facilities by shutting down rural schools and amalgamating. Bringing more pupils together and concentrating resources. Jane Davidson has shown that environment should also be in the hands of those democratically elected rather than those who are not. She stepped in to save the windfarm being turned down in Carmarthenshire, which can also be environmentally positive. Those with the higher academic knowledge who are elected should be setting the rules, not local councils. Interesting survey of the possible future of local councils.
Being also an instinctive democrat like yourself I would see it differently to you on this one.
Centralising social services and education can also be a good thing. Why? Because the National Assembly is an elected body while councils are not.
Jane Hutt’s education policy has brought much better schools with facilities by shutting down rural schools and amalgamating. Bringing more pupils together and concentrating resources.
Jane Davidson has shown that environment should also be in the hands of those democratically elected rather than those who are not. She stepped in to save the windfarm being turned down in Carmarthenshire, which can also be environmentally positive.
Those with the higher academic knowledge who are elected should be setting the rules, not local councils.

]]> By: Michael Cridland http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7664 Michael Cridland Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:59:08 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7664 I am curious what was wrong with the arrangement pre-1996. And why is bigger better? I am curious what was wrong with the arrangement pre-1996. And why is bigger better?

]]> By: Peter Black http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7659 Peter Black Fri, 05 Mar 2010 18:31:04 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7659 Ted, it is in fact the model that all Councils are required to follow under the Local Government Act 2000 and which cannot be undone. I do not like the Cabinet system but it seems that there is no real alternative and if you are going to pass these sorts of additional responsibilities to local Councils it is the only model that makes sense. Your history is of course wrong. You are right that schools were allowed to deteriorate in Swansea, that the Leisure Centre closed and that the bids for the Metro system all occurred under a cabinet system but it was Labour that was running the Council at the time, not the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems have started to put these right, using the Cabinet system, of course. All Cabinet decisions in Swansea are made in public. In fact transparency and openness in the City has improved since 2004. It is still not what I would like but that might illustrate how bad it was under Labour. How many hours do you want us to work. I do over 70 a week and am working 7 days a week most weeks. AMs and Councillors are paid for their responsibilities and the work they put in and I am no different to anybody else. Ted, it is in fact the model that all Councils are required to follow under the Local Government Act 2000 and which cannot be undone. I do not like the Cabinet system but it seems that there is no real alternative and if you are going to pass these sorts of additional responsibilities to local Councils it is the only model that makes sense.

Your history is of course wrong. You are right that schools were allowed to deteriorate in Swansea, that the Leisure Centre closed and that the bids for the Metro system all occurred under a cabinet system but it was Labour that was running the Council at the time, not the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems have started to put these right, using the Cabinet system, of course.

All Cabinet decisions in Swansea are made in public. In fact transparency and openness in the City has improved since 2004. It is still not what I would like but that might illustrate how bad it was under Labour.

How many hours do you want us to work. I do over 70 a week and am working 7 days a week most weeks. AMs and Councillors are paid for their responsibilities and the work they put in and I am no different to anybody else.

]]> By: Swansea Ted http://waleshome.org/2010/03/trust-the-people-time-to-devolve-from-the-assembly/comment-page-1/#comment-7647 Swansea Ted Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:30:04 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=8285#comment-7647 Peter, In your article you suggest 'Each council would be run by a full time cabinet with no more than 10 councillors in each executive body and have a number of strategic directors' Isn't this the Swansea model? - one in which the council has signally failed to deal with some of the more important local issues (schools, child care etc.) and concentrated on more 'attractive', headline grabbing schemes such as the Leisure Centre, bendy bus (sorry, Metro) and 'European Boulevard'. You also say: 'These councils should be more accountable' Is it not the case that the Swansea 'council of 10' have removed large elements of local democracy by taking a large number of important decisions behind closed doors? Finally, you that: '...they would be better remunerated so that they could devote a substantial amount of time to delivering and scrutinising services and acting in a more strategic way' How does this sit alongside elected representatives who sit on both the local authority and Welsh Assembly and are paid for both? There are only so many hours an a day, after all :) Peter,

In your article you suggest

‘Each council would be run by a full time cabinet with no more than 10 councillors in each executive body and have a number of strategic directors’

Isn’t this the Swansea model? – one in which the council has signally failed to deal with some of the more important local issues (schools, child care etc.) and concentrated on more ‘attractive’, headline grabbing schemes such as the Leisure Centre, bendy bus (sorry, Metro) and ‘European Boulevard’.

You also say:

‘These councils should be more accountable’

Is it not the case that the Swansea ‘council of 10′ have removed large elements of local democracy by taking a large number of important decisions behind closed doors?

Finally, you that:

‘…they would be better remunerated so that they could devote a substantial amount of time to delivering and scrutinising services and acting in a more strategic way’

How does this sit alongside elected representatives who sit on both the local authority and Welsh Assembly and are paid for both? There are only so many hours an a day, after all :)

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