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	<title>Comments on: The Crown and the Presence of Absence</title>
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	<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/</link>
	<description>Independent analysis from and about Wales</description>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-13062</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-13062</guid>
		<description>David, as an ardent monarchist you should know that the Three Feathers are the emblem of the Heir Apparent and not the Prince of Wales: the two are not necessarily synonymous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, as an ardent monarchist you should know that the Three Feathers are the emblem of the Heir Apparent and not the Prince of Wales: the two are not necessarily synonymous.</p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7235</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7235</guid>
		<description>Both Tredegar House and Dyffryn House are inspired options that certainly should play a role in state occasions for Wales.  One can easily envision the Welsh Head-of-State hosting many events at both locations, and others too.  Perhaps a meeting of EU leaders in 2025 at Dyffryn House?  The G20 in 2026 at Penrhyn Castle?  And the British Irish Council may be held at either location in 2027. Later, when it is deemed less divisive, the Welsh Head of State could host England’s King George VII at Tredegar House on his state visit to Cardiff in 2028.

However, I believe that the head of state for Wales should be more visible in the capital, and City Hall offers the stately presence that such an office would command.  Additionally, it is large enough to house the staff necessary to support and facilitate the Welsh head of state in performing their office.  Even if the head of state resides daily at Tredegar or Dyffryn House, many state events would occur at Villa Cardiff and would necessitate his commuting to Cathay’s Park or Cardiff Bay. 

We may disagree as to whether a Welsh Head-of-State should be a hereditary monarch or elective president, and we both have made our views known within the life of the discussion.  Nevertheless, we can agree that we want a Welsh Head-of-State resident within Wales year round and fully engaged in the affairs of Wales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both Tredegar House and Dyffryn House are inspired options that certainly should play a role in state occasions for Wales.  One can easily envision the Welsh Head-of-State hosting many events at both locations, and others too.  Perhaps a meeting of EU leaders in 2025 at Dyffryn House?  The G20 in 2026 at Penrhyn Castle?  And the British Irish Council may be held at either location in 2027. Later, when it is deemed less divisive, the Welsh Head of State could host England’s King George VII at Tredegar House on his state visit to Cardiff in 2028.</p>
<p>However, I believe that the head of state for Wales should be more visible in the capital, and City Hall offers the stately presence that such an office would command.  Additionally, it is large enough to house the staff necessary to support and facilitate the Welsh head of state in performing their office.  Even if the head of state resides daily at Tredegar or Dyffryn House, many state events would occur at Villa Cardiff and would necessitate his commuting to Cathay’s Park or Cardiff Bay. </p>
<p>We may disagree as to whether a Welsh Head-of-State should be a hereditary monarch or elective president, and we both have made our views known within the life of the discussion.  Nevertheless, we can agree that we want a Welsh Head-of-State resident within Wales year round and fully engaged in the affairs of Wales.</p>
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		<title>By: Cambria Politico</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7124</link>
		<dc:creator>Cambria Politico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7124</guid>
		<description>David Llewellyn wrote ... &#039;in no way do I wish for any other English prince, William or any other, be proclaimed Prince of Wales.&#039;
Well, I think we can all agree on that and it comes back to my point that a Royal bloodline gets weaker over successive generations, hence the need for an elective system. By all means let the existing members of  a monarchy apply for and compete for the position and if they fit the criteria and receive sufficient votes then they can be King or Queen. However, the key here is &#039;fitting the criteria&#039; and those must include a condition that ...&#039; you are not and have not been an heir to the throne of any other country.&#039; No doubt then the whole process would be accused of  not being &#039;inclusive&#039; in this politically correct world.
Fascinating and informative dialogue on this post and am learning a whole heap of Welsh history!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Llewellyn wrote &#8230; &#8216;in no way do I wish for any other English prince, William or any other, be proclaimed Prince of Wales.&#8217;<br />
Well, I think we can all agree on that and it comes back to my point that a Royal bloodline gets weaker over successive generations, hence the need for an elective system. By all means let the existing members of  a monarchy apply for and compete for the position and if they fit the criteria and receive sufficient votes then they can be King or Queen. However, the key here is &#8216;fitting the criteria&#8217; and those must include a condition that &#8230;&#8217; you are not and have not been an heir to the throne of any other country.&#8217; No doubt then the whole process would be accused of  not being &#8216;inclusive&#8217; in this politically correct world.<br />
Fascinating and informative dialogue on this post and am learning a whole heap of Welsh history!</p>
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		<title>By: Lyn David Thomas</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7092</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyn David Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7092</guid>
		<description>City Hall is a fine building and too much of it is closed to the public most of the time... however installing the UK monarchy there will not do anything to improve that.  It should be used as gallery space as part of our federal Museum of Wales.   I tend to think that Tredegar House or Dyffryn House would have made a good residence for the President of Wales.  A Welsh honour?  We have election to the Gorsedd of Bards... that&#039;s a democratic honour... The UK monarchy has ignored Wales for centuries - long may it continue!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>City Hall is a fine building and too much of it is closed to the public most of the time&#8230; however installing the UK monarchy there will not do anything to improve that.  It should be used as gallery space as part of our federal Museum of Wales.   I tend to think that Tredegar House or Dyffryn House would have made a good residence for the President of Wales.  A Welsh honour?  We have election to the Gorsedd of Bards&#8230; that&#8217;s a democratic honour&#8230; The UK monarchy has ignored Wales for centuries &#8211; long may it continue!</p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7074</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7074</guid>
		<description>Hendre, we both stand corrected! I went back to my notes, and it appears that according to Professor John Davies, on the eve of 1536 Laws of Wales act,  the the Principality of Wales Council directly administered not only Gwynedd and Ynys Mon, but also Flintshire, Ceredigion, and half of Carmarthenshire... specificially that portion known as Cantraf Mawr.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hendre, we both stand corrected! I went back to my notes, and it appears that according to Professor John Davies, on the eve of 1536 Laws of Wales act,  the the Principality of Wales Council directly administered not only Gwynedd and Ynys Mon, but also Flintshire, Ceredigion, and half of Carmarthenshire&#8230; specificially that portion known as Cantraf Mawr.</p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7058</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7058</guid>
		<description>I also meant to make clear that in no way do I wish for any other English prince, William or any other, be proclaimed Prince of Wales. 

((I wish there was an edit option for our posts!))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also meant to make clear that in no way do I wish for any other English prince, William or any other, be proclaimed Prince of Wales. </p>
<p>((I wish there was an edit option for our posts!))</p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7057</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7057</guid>
		<description>I agree with your precise narration Hendre, and in the letter the Assembly sent me, they quoted Jan Morris (whom I absolutely adore!) when she said that the title became more or less a life-peerage of the English Crown. 

The Principality of Wales, that of Llywelyn I the Great and his grandson Llywelyn II the Last was of a larger geographic dimension then that solely of Gwynedd (both upper and lower Gwynedd), encompassing two-thirds of modern Wales and over half of the estimated Welsh population. Only the lowlands in Glamorgan, Gwent, and Pembroke (and a few other locations) were really excluded. However, you are correct; the territory for which the English crown directly ruled was primarily Gwynedd.

In no way do I wish for any other English prince, William or any other, be proclaimed Prince of Wales</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your precise narration Hendre, and in the letter the Assembly sent me, they quoted Jan Morris (whom I absolutely adore!) when she said that the title became more or less a life-peerage of the English Crown. </p>
<p>The Principality of Wales, that of Llywelyn I the Great and his grandson Llywelyn II the Last was of a larger geographic dimension then that solely of Gwynedd (both upper and lower Gwynedd), encompassing two-thirds of modern Wales and over half of the estimated Welsh population. Only the lowlands in Glamorgan, Gwent, and Pembroke (and a few other locations) were really excluded. However, you are correct; the territory for which the English crown directly ruled was primarily Gwynedd.</p>
<p>In no way do I wish for any other English prince, William or any other, be proclaimed Prince of Wales</p>
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		<title>By: Hendre</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7054</link>
		<dc:creator>Hendre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7054</guid>
		<description>The post-conquest title Prince of Wales wasn’t hereditary and there have been lengthy periods when no-one has held the title so I’m a little surprised at the Assembly’s reference even to a historic principality. 

Edward I’s Statute of Rhuddlan didn’t create an all-Wales polity; it only applied to the territory of the Princes of Gwynedd. That statute was superseded by the 1536 Laws in Wales Act, which refers to this country/domain/principality of Wales, but similarly does not create an all-Wales polity. The 1536 Act has since been repealed, as has the 1746 Wales and Berwick Act. As far as I can make out there has never been anything substantive which defines the entire territory of Wales as a principality. People just got into the habit of referring to Wales as a principality. If we must have another investiture (and the Prince William PR machine is being cranked up as we speak) at least it should be pointed out to the boy that the title as it stands doesn’t actually come with anything (to any avoid disappointment).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The post-conquest title Prince of Wales wasn’t hereditary and there have been lengthy periods when no-one has held the title so I’m a little surprised at the Assembly’s reference even to a historic principality. </p>
<p>Edward I’s Statute of Rhuddlan didn’t create an all-Wales polity; it only applied to the territory of the Princes of Gwynedd. That statute was superseded by the 1536 Laws in Wales Act, which refers to this country/domain/principality of Wales, but similarly does not create an all-Wales polity. The 1536 Act has since been repealed, as has the 1746 Wales and Berwick Act. As far as I can make out there has never been anything substantive which defines the entire territory of Wales as a principality. People just got into the habit of referring to Wales as a principality. If we must have another investiture (and the Prince William PR machine is being cranked up as we speak) at least it should be pointed out to the boy that the title as it stands doesn’t actually come with anything (to any avoid disappointment).</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7046</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7046</guid>
		<description>David, thanks for your insight and corrections. Nice to know I&#039;m not making this up as I go *cough* lol ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, thanks for your insight and corrections. Nice to know I&#8217;m not making this up as I go *cough* lol <img src='http://waleshome.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/the-crown-and-the-presence-of-absence/comment-page-2/#comment-7044</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7705#comment-7044</guid>
		<description>Re: Monarchy and religion: 

Clearly there is a spiritual element with monarchy, and a measure of faith is required. But spiritual faith does not mean advocating any one spiritual faith while discriminating against others.

However, in the Western tradition, and specifically the Welsh tradition, there has long been a separation of powers, as it were, between the mystical tribal monarchy that Cambria describes and the hereditary monarchy which was evident by the 6th and 7th century in Wales. The Prince was monarch, and God was represented through ecclesial officials. It is the latter I would suggest for Wales. Herbert Lewis wrote in his definitive 1889 work “The Ancient Laws of Wales”, that though not explicitly codified as such, the edling, or heir apparent, was by convention, custom, and practice the eldest son of the lord and entitled to inherit the position and title as &quot;head of the family&quot; from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certain circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim maternal patrimony through their mother in certain circumstances. In their writtings prior to the Edwardian Conquest, The Council of Wales was adamant that the Aberffraw family owed its position as hereditary Princes of Wales to native Welsh law and practice, and they could not abrogate that responsibility. Many hold that even after the Statute of Rhuddlan was enacted, the decendent family to this day is heir to the Aberffraw legacy. 

Re: Elective Monarchy verses Hereditary Monarchy

As Al pointed out, the difference between an elective monarch and elective presidency is one of semantics, and as I made note above an elective head of state, weather termed monarch or president, could not and does not have the mandate representing the whole of a nation. An elective head-of-state would owe his position to only a segment of the population which voted him into office. With four political factions in Wales, an elective head-of-state would not and could not represent the entire nation. A hereditary head of state could, however, embody and personify the nation above factional and divisive politics by providing a living symbol of nationhood. Especially if this head-of-state has a familial connection to the office and is resident within the nation. With his family, past generations and future, the monarch represents the longevity of the nation of peoples for which he or she represents. 

There is no surprise that hereditary primogeniture has evolved in determine the head-of-state for so many nations over that of elections. Hereditary primogeniture demonstrates a clear, transparent, and predictable line of succession for the office of monarch. Hereditary primogeniture reassures the nation by providing a smooth transition from one head of state to another, without divisive elections and campaigning. Hereditary monarchy allows the nation to witness and participate in the growth and maturity of members of the royal family. Hereditary primogeniture has been practiced in Wales since the 6th and 7th centuries, if not earlier, well until the Edwardian Conquest in the late 13th century.

It is under this native Welsh law and tradition for which I would advocate restoring a descendent of the Aberffraw family to their historic office representing Wales to the nation and to the world family of nations. Trivial matters such as minutia of “courtly protocol” and residency could be discussed after the restoration. 

It should be noted that in Scandanivia, Netherlands, and Spain, a progressive, egalatarian, mature society is positively in favor of their monarchy, and there is no threat to their constitutional arangement. Their monarchs remain highly popular with the people, and the people are greatly interested in their royal families. I want a simular relationship for a Welsh Prince and Princess of Wales and a Welsh Royal Family resident in Wales year round, prehaps in the &#039;Villa Cardiff&#039; .


Re: Cambria and Al: Second Life: 

Me too! Though I may buy a sim in Blue Mars soonish.

Re: Wales as a Nation: 

Wales as a defined nation has its origins even earlier then 926. According to historian Dr. John Davies, the Welsh nation has its origins firmly rooted with the abandonment of Britain by the Roman Empire in the 5th century. Successive nations of the Welsh emerged in this land, and Wales as defined west of the Severn was defined as early as 6th and early 7th centuries, for Offa’s Dyke was built in consultation- rather then in confrontation- with the Princes of Powys and Gwent, according to Davies. The relationship between Hwyel Dda and Athelstan was more of allies, rather then overlord and vassal. Wales was not formally mediatized until after the Norman Invasions. 

Re: the Constitutional status of Wales

I had once written a letter to the Assembly to ask this question, and they returned a well written letter that essentially they did not know. They said certainly Wales was a principality in the historic sense, but there is clearly no relationship between the current prince of Wales and the Assembly of Wales. Historically, Llywelyn the Great and his Council of Wales did have a more formal relationship, so too later after the Edwardian Conquest when the English monarch bestowed the stolen title onto his heir, he gave him more authority in ruling Wales through the Council of Wales and the Marches. 

I refer back to Hendre’s statement as offering more clarity on the status did the Assembly’s answer to my letter. 

Re: “Etholaeth Cymru”,

 I like that.. By the people for the people and with a Welsh monarchy.

Re: “The only proof that the Welsh nation exists is that thee are those who act as if it did exist”.  

I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Monarchy and religion: </p>
<p>Clearly there is a spiritual element with monarchy, and a measure of faith is required. But spiritual faith does not mean advocating any one spiritual faith while discriminating against others.</p>
<p>However, in the Western tradition, and specifically the Welsh tradition, there has long been a separation of powers, as it were, between the mystical tribal monarchy that Cambria describes and the hereditary monarchy which was evident by the 6th and 7th century in Wales. The Prince was monarch, and God was represented through ecclesial officials. It is the latter I would suggest for Wales. Herbert Lewis wrote in his definitive 1889 work “The Ancient Laws of Wales”, that though not explicitly codified as such, the edling, or heir apparent, was by convention, custom, and practice the eldest son of the lord and entitled to inherit the position and title as &#8220;head of the family&#8221; from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certain circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim maternal patrimony through their mother in certain circumstances. In their writtings prior to the Edwardian Conquest, The Council of Wales was adamant that the Aberffraw family owed its position as hereditary Princes of Wales to native Welsh law and practice, and they could not abrogate that responsibility. Many hold that even after the Statute of Rhuddlan was enacted, the decendent family to this day is heir to the Aberffraw legacy. </p>
<p>Re: Elective Monarchy verses Hereditary Monarchy</p>
<p>As Al pointed out, the difference between an elective monarch and elective presidency is one of semantics, and as I made note above an elective head of state, weather termed monarch or president, could not and does not have the mandate representing the whole of a nation. An elective head-of-state would owe his position to only a segment of the population which voted him into office. With four political factions in Wales, an elective head-of-state would not and could not represent the entire nation. A hereditary head of state could, however, embody and personify the nation above factional and divisive politics by providing a living symbol of nationhood. Especially if this head-of-state has a familial connection to the office and is resident within the nation. With his family, past generations and future, the monarch represents the longevity of the nation of peoples for which he or she represents. </p>
<p>There is no surprise that hereditary primogeniture has evolved in determine the head-of-state for so many nations over that of elections. Hereditary primogeniture demonstrates a clear, transparent, and predictable line of succession for the office of monarch. Hereditary primogeniture reassures the nation by providing a smooth transition from one head of state to another, without divisive elections and campaigning. Hereditary monarchy allows the nation to witness and participate in the growth and maturity of members of the royal family. Hereditary primogeniture has been practiced in Wales since the 6th and 7th centuries, if not earlier, well until the Edwardian Conquest in the late 13th century.</p>
<p>It is under this native Welsh law and tradition for which I would advocate restoring a descendent of the Aberffraw family to their historic office representing Wales to the nation and to the world family of nations. Trivial matters such as minutia of “courtly protocol” and residency could be discussed after the restoration. </p>
<p>It should be noted that in Scandanivia, Netherlands, and Spain, a progressive, egalatarian, mature society is positively in favor of their monarchy, and there is no threat to their constitutional arangement. Their monarchs remain highly popular with the people, and the people are greatly interested in their royal families. I want a simular relationship for a Welsh Prince and Princess of Wales and a Welsh Royal Family resident in Wales year round, prehaps in the &#8216;Villa Cardiff&#8217; .</p>
<p>Re: Cambria and Al: Second Life: </p>
<p>Me too! Though I may buy a sim in Blue Mars soonish.</p>
<p>Re: Wales as a Nation: </p>
<p>Wales as a defined nation has its origins even earlier then 926. According to historian Dr. John Davies, the Welsh nation has its origins firmly rooted with the abandonment of Britain by the Roman Empire in the 5th century. Successive nations of the Welsh emerged in this land, and Wales as defined west of the Severn was defined as early as 6th and early 7th centuries, for Offa’s Dyke was built in consultation- rather then in confrontation- with the Princes of Powys and Gwent, according to Davies. The relationship between Hwyel Dda and Athelstan was more of allies, rather then overlord and vassal. Wales was not formally mediatized until after the Norman Invasions. </p>
<p>Re: the Constitutional status of Wales</p>
<p>I had once written a letter to the Assembly to ask this question, and they returned a well written letter that essentially they did not know. They said certainly Wales was a principality in the historic sense, but there is clearly no relationship between the current prince of Wales and the Assembly of Wales. Historically, Llywelyn the Great and his Council of Wales did have a more formal relationship, so too later after the Edwardian Conquest when the English monarch bestowed the stolen title onto his heir, he gave him more authority in ruling Wales through the Council of Wales and the Marches. </p>
<p>I refer back to Hendre’s statement as offering more clarity on the status did the Assembly’s answer to my letter. </p>
<p>Re: “Etholaeth Cymru”,</p>
<p> I like that.. By the people for the people and with a Welsh monarchy.</p>
<p>Re: “The only proof that the Welsh nation exists is that thee are those who act as if it did exist”.  </p>
<p>I agree.</p>
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