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	<title>Comments on: Reversing the flow: how localism and devolution can work together</title>
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	<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/</link>
	<description>Independent analysis from and about Wales</description>
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		<title>By: Mr Hamilton</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-6256</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-6256</guid>
		<description>Lliving in a country that practices &quot;localism&quot; I can shed some light on fundamental differences between the US and UK. First of all is funding. In Kansas local services are usually paid for with local revenue (property taxes collected by the county, and sales tax by the city). That can be a huge disadvantage if you live in a rural area (live me) where there are few people and businesses. For example the local school district has a deficit of 50 Million dollars, which means it can not build new schools for the growing population. At the moment the State of Kansas lost a court case over the problem of underfunding  rural school districts. However we have not seen the money. Saying that the schools are in good condition and minority children do get the proper services. That is the disadvantage.  saying that Kansas (small rural state with as population of 2.8 Million) has a better school system than California, with most of its funding coming from the State.  Tip O Neill said that all politics are local. Planning stops at the county level and that is the way that Americans like it. In the UK and Wales in particular most funding comes from Central government and WAG has the final say over planning.

Do the &quot;No&quot; group prefer to leave decision making in the hands of Westminster?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lliving in a country that practices &#8220;localism&#8221; I can shed some light on fundamental differences between the US and UK. First of all is funding. In Kansas local services are usually paid for with local revenue (property taxes collected by the county, and sales tax by the city). That can be a huge disadvantage if you live in a rural area (live me) where there are few people and businesses. For example the local school district has a deficit of 50 Million dollars, which means it can not build new schools for the growing population. At the moment the State of Kansas lost a court case over the problem of underfunding  rural school districts. However we have not seen the money. Saying that the schools are in good condition and minority children do get the proper services. That is the disadvantage.  saying that Kansas (small rural state with as population of 2.8 Million) has a better school system than California, with most of its funding coming from the State.  Tip O Neill said that all politics are local. Planning stops at the county level and that is the way that Americans like it. In the UK and Wales in particular most funding comes from Central government and WAG has the final say over planning.</p>
<p>Do the &#8220;No&#8221; group prefer to leave decision making in the hands of Westminster?</p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-6094</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-6094</guid>
		<description>I was reading up on the US State of Massachusetts in the intervening time since my last post Penddu, and find some interesting comparisons. Firstly, geographically that state is about the same size as Wales, and has 16 counties. It has twice the population of Wales, however.  You may be interested in this Penddu as a reference to compare local responsabilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Massachusetts


((By the way, how does one hyperlink in text here?))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was reading up on the US State of Massachusetts in the intervening time since my last post Penddu, and find some interesting comparisons. Firstly, geographically that state is about the same size as Wales, and has 16 counties. It has twice the population of Wales, however.  You may be interested in this Penddu as a reference to compare local responsabilities.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Massachusetts" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Massachusetts</a></p>
<p>((By the way, how does one hyperlink in text here?))</p>
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		<title>By: penddu</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-6077</link>
		<dc:creator>penddu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-6077</guid>
		<description>While I agree with the Canton approach, I dont think it will work if you have a tiny (population-wise) Powys alongside a massive South Wales.

What we should build on is our 3 city-regions (Newport-Gwent; Cardiff-East Glamorgan; Swanse-West Glamorgan and two mixed regions of North Wales and Dyfed Powys (except maybe Powys needs to be looked at again).

But then we should align all services such as NHS, Fire-Rescue, etc within these boundaries and then make them democraticially accountable</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with the Canton approach, I dont think it will work if you have a tiny (population-wise) Powys alongside a massive South Wales.</p>
<p>What we should build on is our 3 city-regions (Newport-Gwent; Cardiff-East Glamorgan; Swanse-West Glamorgan and two mixed regions of North Wales and Dyfed Powys (except maybe Powys needs to be looked at again).</p>
<p>But then we should align all services such as NHS, Fire-Rescue, etc within these boundaries and then make them democraticially accountable</p>
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		<title>By: David Llewellyn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-6072</link>
		<dc:creator>David Llewellyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 06:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-6072</guid>
		<description>I very much enjoyed reading your article Adam Higgitt, and it is something that was touched on in Betsan Powys blog [http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/betsanpowys/2010/01/extraordinary_times.html#comments&#124;Extraordinary Times] on 20 January. I think the general consensus was an agreement for four or five regional counties. I agree with the thrust of your argument, and particularly that localisation …

“Could work very well with an Assembly gaining in power, stature and authority. The need for an all-Wales approach to key services remains as strong as ever, and indeed for laws to be passed in those areas of competence. Authority would be delegated upwards for that end, but it would be targeted very precisely on those areas where it makes little sense for the local unit to act alone, or with only a few others. And the right to vary the approach according to local tastes and priorities would be built in. The localist agenda is presented too often as a challenge to devolved government, or the process of nation-building, but if you reverse the flow they segue beautifully. The national level becomes the constantly re-affirmed collective will of each part of Wales, rather than a central and centralising statelet.”

Personally, I believe that 22 local authorities are simply way too many, and am currently studying the local governance in other countries. Of particularly interested is the relationship between Swiss cantons and their centralised authority, and also the relationship between US States and their counties. Clearly, there is such a strong pull towards centralisation in Britain, but it seems the federal approach has a lot to recommend it. 

Swiss cantons are responsible form the delivery of healthcare, welfare, law enforcement, public education, but also the ability of taxation. Also, cantons are able to determine the degree of even more localised municipalities and rural districts, which can very to a degree. The populations of cantons vary from 15,471 to 1,244,400. A similar approach and division of responsibility exists between US States and their local counties and cities. 

With this framework in mind, there are primarily four regions in Wales that could form the basis for a Swiss style canton or a US style county. And indeed the NHC Wales has divided its delivery of services into three regions already, as has the Fire and Rescue Service, and Policing. These services are based on north Wales, mid and west Wales, and south Wales. Essentially, I would suggest returning to the 1962 report on Local Government Commission for Wales. I would propose the counties of Gwynedd for north Wales, Powys for mid Wales, Deheubarth/Dyfed for west Wales, and Glamorgan for south Wales. Each of these counties would operate much like those Swiss cantons or US style counties, with the Welsh Assembly as an oversight role for all-Wales matters. I believe that this kind of localised responsibly, devolved upwards in the manner you suggest, would encourage localised civic nationalism, with locals taking more ownership of their needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much enjoyed reading your article Adam Higgitt, and it is something that was touched on in Betsan Powys blog [http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/betsanpowys/2010/01/extraordinary_times.html#comments|Extraordinary Times] on 20 January. I think the general consensus was an agreement for four or five regional counties. I agree with the thrust of your argument, and particularly that localisation …</p>
<p>“Could work very well with an Assembly gaining in power, stature and authority. The need for an all-Wales approach to key services remains as strong as ever, and indeed for laws to be passed in those areas of competence. Authority would be delegated upwards for that end, but it would be targeted very precisely on those areas where it makes little sense for the local unit to act alone, or with only a few others. And the right to vary the approach according to local tastes and priorities would be built in. The localist agenda is presented too often as a challenge to devolved government, or the process of nation-building, but if you reverse the flow they segue beautifully. The national level becomes the constantly re-affirmed collective will of each part of Wales, rather than a central and centralising statelet.”</p>
<p>Personally, I believe that 22 local authorities are simply way too many, and am currently studying the local governance in other countries. Of particularly interested is the relationship between Swiss cantons and their centralised authority, and also the relationship between US States and their counties. Clearly, there is such a strong pull towards centralisation in Britain, but it seems the federal approach has a lot to recommend it. </p>
<p>Swiss cantons are responsible form the delivery of healthcare, welfare, law enforcement, public education, but also the ability of taxation. Also, cantons are able to determine the degree of even more localised municipalities and rural districts, which can very to a degree. The populations of cantons vary from 15,471 to 1,244,400. A similar approach and division of responsibility exists between US States and their local counties and cities. </p>
<p>With this framework in mind, there are primarily four regions in Wales that could form the basis for a Swiss style canton or a US style county. And indeed the NHC Wales has divided its delivery of services into three regions already, as has the Fire and Rescue Service, and Policing. These services are based on north Wales, mid and west Wales, and south Wales. Essentially, I would suggest returning to the 1962 report on Local Government Commission for Wales. I would propose the counties of Gwynedd for north Wales, Powys for mid Wales, Deheubarth/Dyfed for west Wales, and Glamorgan for south Wales. Each of these counties would operate much like those Swiss cantons or US style counties, with the Welsh Assembly as an oversight role for all-Wales matters. I believe that this kind of localised responsibly, devolved upwards in the manner you suggest, would encourage localised civic nationalism, with locals taking more ownership of their needs.</p>
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		<title>By: senn</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-6006</link>
		<dc:creator>senn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-6006</guid>
		<description>Well thought out article. 
What is happening especially with young people is an ever increasing move to places of higher pop. density. For instance away from rural areas to the cities. The rural area in  Wales where i live is largely inhabited by middle age-older settlers with some disposable income. While the young cannot afford rural properties and tend to rent poor dwellings or purchase houses that have a ground floor that has seemingly being hit by a meteor  and needs ten barrows of concrete chucked in (like senn)
The nearest town is the nearest thing to a ghost town. The police station is uninhabited and the rather nice public gardens built a few years ago are permanently locked due to lack of security/supervision . or lack of communication between authoirites and local people.  The library is open only a few hours per week (i think it is 7hrs) due again to councils lack of communication with locals. I have suggested volunteers but it would be far too much work to organise....  The main former workstation for the town,  alarge creamery is a huge mound of rubble...a concrete slag heap almost as large as the slate slagheap in Blaenau Ffestioniog.
But there is some nice wildflowers growing which would not have grown otherwise.
Telephone boxes are de-commissioned by BT in rural reas which is a further affront against localism.
There is one old red box which has been offered to our community council (which rests on private land- my mates ground) but there is no one in the community council who is seemingly able to write a letter in English to accept it, (2 years ago) So it sits there as a museum piece! 
It is good the Cameronian is embracing localism cus that is what is needed in rural Wales . Intelligent and sensitive localism.  One must not trust councils at all costs to try and implement.
The classic example in Wales has got to be Llanelli. Business has gone . Local business nowhere to be seen . All gone to Trostre and the big chainstores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well thought out article.<br />
What is happening especially with young people is an ever increasing move to places of higher pop. density. For instance away from rural areas to the cities. The rural area in  Wales where i live is largely inhabited by middle age-older settlers with some disposable income. While the young cannot afford rural properties and tend to rent poor dwellings or purchase houses that have a ground floor that has seemingly being hit by a meteor  and needs ten barrows of concrete chucked in (like senn)<br />
The nearest town is the nearest thing to a ghost town. The police station is uninhabited and the rather nice public gardens built a few years ago are permanently locked due to lack of security/supervision . or lack of communication between authoirites and local people.  The library is open only a few hours per week (i think it is 7hrs) due again to councils lack of communication with locals. I have suggested volunteers but it would be far too much work to organise&#8230;.  The main former workstation for the town,  alarge creamery is a huge mound of rubble&#8230;a concrete slag heap almost as large as the slate slagheap in Blaenau Ffestioniog.<br />
But there is some nice wildflowers growing which would not have grown otherwise.<br />
Telephone boxes are de-commissioned by BT in rural reas which is a further affront against localism.<br />
There is one old red box which has been offered to our community council (which rests on private land- my mates ground) but there is no one in the community council who is seemingly able to write a letter in English to accept it, (2 years ago) So it sits there as a museum piece!<br />
It is good the Cameronian is embracing localism cus that is what is needed in rural Wales . Intelligent and sensitive localism.  One must not trust councils at all costs to try and implement.<br />
The classic example in Wales has got to be Llanelli. Business has gone . Local business nowhere to be seen . All gone to Trostre and the big chainstores.</p>
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		<title>By: David Phillips</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-5999</link>
		<dc:creator>David Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-5999</guid>
		<description>The key issue is creating the environment in which social entrepreneurs can shape their communities with the support of an enabling government. It is quite possible for this to occur without further devolution to the National Assembly as is currently being debated.

After all, let&#039;s not confuse devolution to communities or localism with national political devolution. While I am not saying there should not be devolution of further powers, it is not a pre-requisite for unleashing the dynamism and latent creativity of people in our communities up and down Wales.

With new legislation putting mutuals on the same level playing field as the proprietary model likely to be on the statute book before the next election, such a framework offers real potential to release entrepreneurial and co-operative energy in ways that can transform our communites  without there being any enhanced powers for the Assembly. 

Remember, the goal remains empowerment and a climate in which the aspirations of the many, and not the few, are enabled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key issue is creating the environment in which social entrepreneurs can shape their communities with the support of an enabling government. It is quite possible for this to occur without further devolution to the National Assembly as is currently being debated.</p>
<p>After all, let&#8217;s not confuse devolution to communities or localism with national political devolution. While I am not saying there should not be devolution of further powers, it is not a pre-requisite for unleashing the dynamism and latent creativity of people in our communities up and down Wales.</p>
<p>With new legislation putting mutuals on the same level playing field as the proprietary model likely to be on the statute book before the next election, such a framework offers real potential to release entrepreneurial and co-operative energy in ways that can transform our communites  without there being any enhanced powers for the Assembly. </p>
<p>Remember, the goal remains empowerment and a climate in which the aspirations of the many, and not the few, are enabled.</p>
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		<title>By: Cambria Politico</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-5905</link>
		<dc:creator>Cambria Politico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-5905</guid>
		<description>Excellent and serious article with alot to think about. 
Centralists may argue that the issue here is &#039;competence&#039;. Are there local structures in place competent to deal with devolved decentralised functions?  Maybe so, possibly not. Personally, I think that power follows money so if we in Wales were to able repair the financial systems underpinning the Welsh economy by concentrating on introducing new locality financing systems then political power would come and it would be localised. As to the &#039;higher&#039; functions of state like defense and foreign policy these are never likely to be devolved for obvious reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent and serious article with alot to think about.<br />
Centralists may argue that the issue here is &#8216;competence&#8217;. Are there local structures in place competent to deal with devolved decentralised functions?  Maybe so, possibly not. Personally, I think that power follows money so if we in Wales were to able repair the financial systems underpinning the Welsh economy by concentrating on introducing new locality financing systems then political power would come and it would be localised. As to the &#8216;higher&#8217; functions of state like defense and foreign policy these are never likely to be devolved for obvious reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Higgitt</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-5903</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Higgitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-5903</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the responses, even the mildly poisoned chalice passed my way by John T :-)

Hendre - it&#039;s a perfectly reasonable question, to which the answer is a guarded &quot;yes&quot;. I can see a continuing need for state-level functions from which the local or sub-state level would not be able to secede without a formal constitutional process. For everything else, it ought to be possible to imagine sovereignty - for want of a better word - resting at the local level.

This could be more important than assumed. At present, the localities would, we assume, opt to remain in federation with other Welsh localities, but in Union with each of the UK&#039;s nations, which in turn remained in a looser union with the rest of Europe. But in time this might change, so for example they might choose to federate only with other Welsh localities for the purposes of state-level functions within the EU. In time, even this union might come to be surplus to requirements. We might end up with a Europe of the localities, with alliances formed and maintained according to the best (defined as the optimum trade-off between delivery and responsiveness) and all state-level functions operated on a pan-Europe basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the responses, even the mildly poisoned chalice passed my way by John T <img src='http://waleshome.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Hendre &#8211; it&#8217;s a perfectly reasonable question, to which the answer is a guarded &#8220;yes&#8221;. I can see a continuing need for state-level functions from which the local or sub-state level would not be able to secede without a formal constitutional process. For everything else, it ought to be possible to imagine sovereignty &#8211; for want of a better word &#8211; resting at the local level.</p>
<p>This could be more important than assumed. At present, the localities would, we assume, opt to remain in federation with other Welsh localities, but in Union with each of the UK&#8217;s nations, which in turn remained in a looser union with the rest of Europe. But in time this might change, so for example they might choose to federate only with other Welsh localities for the purposes of state-level functions within the EU. In time, even this union might come to be surplus to requirements. We might end up with a Europe of the localities, with alliances formed and maintained according to the best (defined as the optimum trade-off between delivery and responsiveness) and all state-level functions operated on a pan-Europe basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-5882</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-5882</guid>
		<description>Plenty to think about here - thanks. &#039;Local&#039; is the place where people can feel more empowered to do something to try to make a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plenty to think about here &#8211; thanks. &#8216;Local&#8217; is the place where people can feel more empowered to do something to try to make a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Hendre</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2010/02/reversing-the-flow-how-localism-and-devolution-can-work-together/comment-page-1/#comment-5880</link>
		<dc:creator>Hendre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=7446#comment-5880</guid>
		<description>In other words you&#039;re advocating the end of Parliamentary sovereignty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In other words you&#8217;re advocating the end of Parliamentary sovereignty?</p>
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