Comments on: The north-south divide (and how devolution bridged it)

By: Rhys

Rhys — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:48:54 +0000

All the ‘Walian’ how’s-your-father was a standard bit of colonialist divisiveness, and is kept up by those who like being run by foreigners. What I want to know is, when is someone going to get interested in East Wales, the bit not represented in the Senedd, Croesoswallt, Henffordd and so on. As we de-colonise they should at least get a vote on whether to stay serf – as the west-Shropshire parishes did about the disestablisnment of the Church.

By: Huw P

Huw P — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:04:32 +0000

…. “I’m with Gwyn Alf Williams”…
And me. Good article Marc.

PS It’s a shame that Gwyn Alf’s masterwork “When Was Wales” is out of print.

By: Paul Rogers

Paul Rogers — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:54:34 +0000

Good article. Marc. However, I dont think that you can down play the feeling among voters in the North that there is a divide in Wales. Devolution has played a role. However, there are still undercurrents, particularly in North East Wales, of bias towards the south.

The recent press release by Mark Isherwood AM regarding the “sifting” process in determining the shortlist for the recent Strategic Capital Investment Fund bids makes very interesting reading.

By: Rob Williams

Rob Williams — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:42:42 +0000

@RTG You are quite right about the issues relating to North East Wales, and the fine work Mr Jones and others have been doing in Wrexham. There will be a piece by me on Wales Home in the next couple of weeks discussing this very issue – so watch out for it!

By: RTG

RTG — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:16:07 +0000

While i’d agree that devolution may have to an extent helped bridge the (exaggerated) north-south divide, I neverthless find myself concerned about what is perhaps a more salient division between east and west, particularly in relation to the North East: are we perhaps in some sense in danger of “losing” the North East in the long term, despite devolution? I’m aware, for example, that Marc Jones and his collegues have been very active on the issue the Mersey/Dee alliance and the North-East Wales/West Cheshire sub-regional strategy and its possible implications for the Welsh identity of that part of the country.

How do we go about perhaps “anchoring” Wrexham and Flinshire within Wales in the face of the sheer gravitational pull of an emergent Greater Merseyside? And more generally, how do advocates of increased self government/ independence propose that we manage the intimate and complex social and economic linkages which span our long and porous border with England in a less “colonial” form?

By: Len Gibbs

Len Gibbs — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:41:33 +0000

An addendum:
My experience of Welsh diversity came in the early 1970′s when I was in a position to determine how customer accounts were serviced. Traditionally, for geographical reasons, North Wales is managed by someone from Liverpool/Manchester, Mid-Wales from Birmingham and South Wales from Bristol. I made the decision to manage all the accounts in Wales as a single management entity. To do this the mileage is high and time consuming. I decided among my other duties to service the accounts myself. Many of the customers in the North had never had a commercial representative from someone from the South. I was received well and was asked to continue visiting them BECAUSE I was from the South. Although there were many differences between us, they were of lesser importance than the fact that we both had a Welsh indentity. The friendly reception and good will of these people has had a lasting impact on my view of the what and who is Welsh. As an aside…we also offered, for those who wanted too, to conduct correspondance between the two companies in Welsh. As I have pointed out earlier, being Welsh is better than becoming Welsh.

By: Len Gibbs

Len Gibbs — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:47:52 +0000

Rob: You ask about the relevance.

The emphasis I made is that I see the ‘divide’ to be much less than Marc’s article. Whether there is a ‘state’ or not, the people in Wales are Welsh and although there are ‘divides’ they are not as important as might first appear. Being Welsh is better than becoming Welsh by ‘state’. One of the advantages of being Welsh is that because there aren’t to many of us, we can know people from all over Wales. I do and I can meet them at national events. My basis for ‘state’ is we are Welsh, and if we want a state, let’s agree on it, rather than we need a state to become Welsh.

Marc: “A pseudo-nation? ” Almost as soon as I pushed the submit button I thought, “I should have changed
that.” I would have changed it to “hybrid nation” because it matched the thrust of the comment.

“Talking about it as a national entity ” Your article took a more legal standpoint than my comment, but we are making the same point with different emphasis. It is remarkable that a small population next to a huge nation has maintaind a self-identity. It is all the more remarkable because much of the population of Wales has strong historic links to England and yet, they have a Welsh identity. The identity may be different in North East Wales to that in South Pembroke and so on, but the remarkable thing is that all groups subscribe to a Welsh identity.
“Well-travelled” It has been one of the privileges of my working life to have travelled all over Wales, meeting people. I have seen it in all of the seasons, in winter when the visitors aren’t there to packed roads in summer. I’ve seen it in the spring when it is fresh and in the autumn when the trees take on their hues. I’ve seen it from the sea, sailing from Deganwy to Porthcawl. I paint it. I have an exhibition in the Washington Gallery, Penarth, in late March of some of those paintings, the coast from Penarth to Aberaeron. If you really want to get to know Wales and its people, get a job that pays you to travel around it and when you retire, paint it!

By: Ian

Ian — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:16:07 +0000

I think that the North East should have a national institution. There are several in the South East. A few in the south west, one on Aberystwyth and even a national museum in the north west. If we ever have enough cash to create another such institution, then Wrexham should be the target.

I just thought that I would get that one off my chest, for national unity. Having our national gallery in Wrexham would also give the South Wales Echo a fit. It has to be worth it, just for their headline!

By: Duncan Higgitt

Duncan Higgitt — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:28:23 +0000

Sounds like the basis for your next piece for us, mate…

By: marc jones

marc jones — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:44:58 +0000

A pseudo-nation? (according to the well-travelled Len Gibbs). I’d rather describe Wales as an imagined community (insofar as all nations are – particularly the “British nation”) and I’m with Gwyn Alf Williams* in that Wales has to reinvent itself constantly in order to survive. This past decade has been one such period of reinvention, as was the late Victorian era.
To that extent, I’d also agree with Duncan that the most amazing thing about Wales is that we are actually talking about it as a national entity at all. Objectively we should be West Anglia after military conquest, political annexation and cultural discrimination, but we persist and endure.
Stubborness or perhaps defiance – is that a national characteristic?

* “Wales…. the Welsh make and remake Wales.. if they want to”