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	<title>Comments on: Crossing the Great Divide</title>
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	<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/</link>
	<description>Independent analysis from and about Wales</description>
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		<title>By: Rene Kinzett</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3720</link>
		<dc:creator>Rene Kinzett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3720</guid>
		<description>Thanks for engaging and positive comments. I do not intend to enter into the specific arguments about Oscar&#039;s defection to the Welsh Conservatives, except to say that I, of course, welcome his decision to join my Party. I think the general points I have made about the hurt that can be caused to those you leave behind cover some of the points of criticism made against Oscar in the comments above. I do not seek to make light of the real effect on either activists, friends or indeed staff, I had to grapple with many of the same emotional issues when I left the LibDems. I think the point made by Marcus about &quot;respect&quot; for one&#039;s former Party is well made and interesting - in my case whilst I have maintained positive relationships with some of the more sensible and &quot;politically smart&quot; Welsh LibDems (how many of them is that? sorry couldn&#039;t resist!) I have faced real vitriol from others and having to continue to work on my local council, the fact that some LibDems could barely be in the same room as me made things rather difficult. I do not know the full details of Alun Davies&#039; relationships with people in his former party, but when I was faced (and continue to face) real hostility, it does become all too easy to descend to the level of behaviour one is confronted with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for engaging and positive comments. I do not intend to enter into the specific arguments about Oscar&#8217;s defection to the Welsh Conservatives, except to say that I, of course, welcome his decision to join my Party. I think the general points I have made about the hurt that can be caused to those you leave behind cover some of the points of criticism made against Oscar in the comments above. I do not seek to make light of the real effect on either activists, friends or indeed staff, I had to grapple with many of the same emotional issues when I left the LibDems. I think the point made by Marcus about &#8220;respect&#8221; for one&#8217;s former Party is well made and interesting &#8211; in my case whilst I have maintained positive relationships with some of the more sensible and &#8220;politically smart&#8221; Welsh LibDems (how many of them is that? sorry couldn&#8217;t resist!) I have faced real vitriol from others and having to continue to work on my local council, the fact that some LibDems could barely be in the same room as me made things rather difficult. I do not know the full details of Alun Davies&#8217; relationships with people in his former party, but when I was faced (and continue to face) real hostility, it does become all too easy to descend to the level of behaviour one is confronted with.</p>
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		<title>By: Rhys ap Kevin</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3698</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhys ap Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3698</guid>
		<description>Very nice piece. I have no problem with FPTP members defecting all they like; I have a problem with someone who is representing a party (and photo or no photo on the ballot, he is representing the party) being able to defect! He is simply not eligible to do this. How can he? He was only elected because x% voted Plaid!

I trust the Government of Wales Act 20xx will fix this!

It is, as Alistair Campbell would call it: a &quot;process&quot; issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice piece. I have no problem with FPTP members defecting all they like; I have a problem with someone who is representing a party (and photo or no photo on the ballot, he is representing the party) being able to defect! He is simply not eligible to do this. How can he? He was only elected because x% voted Plaid!</p>
<p>I trust the Government of Wales Act 20xx will fix this!</p>
<p>It is, as Alistair Campbell would call it: a &#8220;process&#8221; issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Higgitt</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3692</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Higgitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3692</guid>
		<description>Agree with many comments above. However, it&#039;s worth noting (and I don&#039;t say this in respect of Mohammad Asghar) that parties often recruit and retain people who do not appear to be at home in that party from the start. Party membership is not always a product of carefully mapping one&#039;s on beliefs onto an organisation; sometimes people join because they know people in that party, or because they have family members in it. Sometimes they are recruited by someone charismatic and simply fall into it.

The other point is that defectors often change their beliefs - at least publicly - far more quickly and radically than others feel is plausible. This is not so much the zeal of the converted, but the need to conform very quickly to the new party. It may not be insincere, but it is often done to prove to the new hosts that the defector will not be a trouble maker to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with many comments above. However, it&#8217;s worth noting (and I don&#8217;t say this in respect of Mohammad Asghar) that parties often recruit and retain people who do not appear to be at home in that party from the start. Party membership is not always a product of carefully mapping one&#8217;s on beliefs onto an organisation; sometimes people join because they know people in that party, or because they have family members in it. Sometimes they are recruited by someone charismatic and simply fall into it.</p>
<p>The other point is that defectors often change their beliefs &#8211; at least publicly &#8211; far more quickly and radically than others feel is plausible. This is not so much the zeal of the converted, but the need to conform very quickly to the new party. It may not be insincere, but it is often done to prove to the new hosts that the defector will not be a trouble maker to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus Warner</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3690</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus Warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3690</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff.

As someone who joined a new party after previously being member of another, I can see the number of different emotions that come into play when this occurs. 

Mine was one of conviction, circumstance and personality, so perhaps all of the reasons rolled into one. 

The most comforting thing for me was that despite my previous oppositional tone to my new party&#039;s policy, it wasnt the seismic change that many encounter. I mean, I was a left winger calling for Wales to have &#039;political self governance&#039; prior to joining Plaid. In truth I was just a nobody from Pontypool, so hardly earth shattering. 

I am loathe to mention Mr Asghar again, but to me his defection is the the worst kind - basically bull*** wrapped in some self interested reasons. 

It is interesting to perhaps contemplate the party that &#039;welcomes&#039; the defectors, and how that defectors acts to the party he or she left. I can remember a certain Welsh AM once pulling a rent a crowd outside the Senedd to &#039;announce&#039; a tory councillor has switched to Labour, which even to the Labourites there seemed a bit sickly. Personally, I thought Alan Davies&#039; attack dog mentality to Plaid Ministers seems not inkeeping with good taste for example, given his past. Respect should be paid to previous political homes, despite wanting to highlight your new party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff.</p>
<p>As someone who joined a new party after previously being member of another, I can see the number of different emotions that come into play when this occurs. </p>
<p>Mine was one of conviction, circumstance and personality, so perhaps all of the reasons rolled into one. </p>
<p>The most comforting thing for me was that despite my previous oppositional tone to my new party&#8217;s policy, it wasnt the seismic change that many encounter. I mean, I was a left winger calling for Wales to have &#8216;political self governance&#8217; prior to joining Plaid. In truth I was just a nobody from Pontypool, so hardly earth shattering. </p>
<p>I am loathe to mention Mr Asghar again, but to me his defection is the the worst kind &#8211; basically bull*** wrapped in some self interested reasons. </p>
<p>It is interesting to perhaps contemplate the party that &#8216;welcomes&#8217; the defectors, and how that defectors acts to the party he or she left. I can remember a certain Welsh AM once pulling a rent a crowd outside the Senedd to &#8216;announce&#8217; a tory councillor has switched to Labour, which even to the Labourites there seemed a bit sickly. Personally, I thought Alan Davies&#8217; attack dog mentality to Plaid Ministers seems not inkeeping with good taste for example, given his past. Respect should be paid to previous political homes, despite wanting to highlight your new party.</p>
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		<title>By: Cambria Politico</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3687</link>
		<dc:creator>Cambria Politico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3687</guid>
		<description>A very good article indeed. Nice to read something thoughtful which has a historical perspective. 
I particularly liked his comments about the impact on the politician - the loss of friends, colleagues and the suspicion with which the &#039;turn coat&#039; is viewed by their new pals. Very daunting. It takes either courage of new conviction or some other &#039;incentive&#039;. With Oscar we are not so sure which it is.
Pity Kinzett doesn&#039;t have much of a chance in Swansea but he may cause the others to raise their game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very good article indeed. Nice to read something thoughtful which has a historical perspective.<br />
I particularly liked his comments about the impact on the politician &#8211; the loss of friends, colleagues and the suspicion with which the &#8216;turn coat&#8217; is viewed by their new pals. Very daunting. It takes either courage of new conviction or some other &#8216;incentive&#8217;. With Oscar we are not so sure which it is.<br />
Pity Kinzett doesn&#8217;t have much of a chance in Swansea but he may cause the others to raise their game.</p>
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		<title>By: Huw Evans</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3685</link>
		<dc:creator>Huw Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3685</guid>
		<description>I agree with Duncan&#039;s comment in general terms.  Rene is by his own admitance a defector (I prefer the term &quot;turn coat&quot;) but it&#039;s quite fair to point out that during periods in life people will sometimes change direction, develop new views, all of which will be based upon life experiencces.

The sticking point I think with Plaid is that he didn&#039;t tell his colleagues nor most importantly his current garden-leave staff.  

Kim Howells MP who has announced today that he is standing down has equally had an interesting journey from Miners&#039; Unionist to the Communist Party through to being a New Labour Minister - one hell of a journey - though admittedly hardly one of defection except in purist terms.  His memoirs will be well worth a read as he&#039;s never held back on his views of life, politics and his colleagues at Westminster.  Let&#039;s not even consider his views on devolution, the National Assembly and Plaid Cymru - that&#039;s an article for another day! 

I wish Oscar well though I&#039;m not sure where his journey will take him. Great article Rene, Diolch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Duncan&#8217;s comment in general terms.  Rene is by his own admitance a defector (I prefer the term &#8220;turn coat&#8221;) but it&#8217;s quite fair to point out that during periods in life people will sometimes change direction, develop new views, all of which will be based upon life experiencces.</p>
<p>The sticking point I think with Plaid is that he didn&#8217;t tell his colleagues nor most importantly his current garden-leave staff.  </p>
<p>Kim Howells MP who has announced today that he is standing down has equally had an interesting journey from Miners&#8217; Unionist to the Communist Party through to being a New Labour Minister &#8211; one hell of a journey &#8211; though admittedly hardly one of defection except in purist terms.  His memoirs will be well worth a read as he&#8217;s never held back on his views of life, politics and his colleagues at Westminster.  Let&#8217;s not even consider his views on devolution, the National Assembly and Plaid Cymru &#8211; that&#8217;s an article for another day! </p>
<p>I wish Oscar well though I&#8217;m not sure where his journey will take him. Great article Rene, Diolch.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan Higgitt</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/12/crossing-the-great-divide/comment-page-1/#comment-3684</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Higgitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 08:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=5846#comment-3684</guid>
		<description>This is the first thoughtful and considerate response I&#039;ve read from a Conservative on the matter of Asghar&#039;s defection. Others have been high-handed and dismissive, often claiming that Plaid &quot;had it coming&quot;. This kind of conclusion is as arrogant as it is ignorant.

It isn&#039;t Plaid&#039;s fault that Asghar decided to effectively fire his staff by press conference - and even if it was, they deserve better for their service than becoming the unwitting victims of a media stunt. Just as it isn&#039;t Plaid&#039;s fault that a number of senior members of the party believed they maintained personal friendships with the man, and were more hurt than outraged by his defection - and, most importantly, the callous manner in which he carried it out.

Rene rightly points out that people&#039;s political opinions shift. Hard to argue with this. Politicians are as subject to changes not only in personal circumstances like the rest of us. They are sometimes slapped in the face with the reality of their convictions, and change as a consequence. What is hard to stomach is Asghar&#039;s particular reasons for his jump which, even now, remain fuzzy and unconvincing: why would such a convicted unionist and a royalist join a nationalist and republican party?

Rene is also right in saying that it will probably turn out for the best. Once the party gets over the shock of the cool and calculating way he betrayed his staff (and this is what really rankles among the membership, no matter what is said outside its ranks), I strongly suspect that most people in Plaid will heave a quiet sigh of relief that he is gone. As for those high-handed Tories, they may come to see Mohammed Asghar&#039;s defection as something of a hospital pass.

Good piece, Rene - thanks for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the first thoughtful and considerate response I&#8217;ve read from a Conservative on the matter of Asghar&#8217;s defection. Others have been high-handed and dismissive, often claiming that Plaid &#8220;had it coming&#8221;. This kind of conclusion is as arrogant as it is ignorant.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t Plaid&#8217;s fault that Asghar decided to effectively fire his staff by press conference &#8211; and even if it was, they deserve better for their service than becoming the unwitting victims of a media stunt. Just as it isn&#8217;t Plaid&#8217;s fault that a number of senior members of the party believed they maintained personal friendships with the man, and were more hurt than outraged by his defection &#8211; and, most importantly, the callous manner in which he carried it out.</p>
<p>Rene rightly points out that people&#8217;s political opinions shift. Hard to argue with this. Politicians are as subject to changes not only in personal circumstances like the rest of us. They are sometimes slapped in the face with the reality of their convictions, and change as a consequence. What is hard to stomach is Asghar&#8217;s particular reasons for his jump which, even now, remain fuzzy and unconvincing: why would such a convicted unionist and a royalist join a nationalist and republican party?</p>
<p>Rene is also right in saying that it will probably turn out for the best. Once the party gets over the shock of the cool and calculating way he betrayed his staff (and this is what really rankles among the membership, no matter what is said outside its ranks), I strongly suspect that most people in Plaid will heave a quiet sigh of relief that he is gone. As for those high-handed Tories, they may come to see Mohammed Asghar&#8217;s defection as something of a hospital pass.</p>
<p>Good piece, Rene &#8211; thanks for that.</p>
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