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	<title>Comments on: Say no to No Platform</title>
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	<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/</link>
	<description>Independent analysis from and about Wales</description>
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		<title>By: No Platform &#124; Ryan's Blog</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-12375</link>
		<dc:creator>No Platform &#124; Ryan's Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-12375</guid>
		<description>[...]  Posted on October 10, 2009  by  Ryan   There is a good article on Wales Home by Patrick McGuinness about the trouble with No Platform [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Posted on October 10, 2009  by  Ryan   There is a good article on Wales Home by Patrick McGuinness about the trouble with No Platform [...]</p>
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		<title>By: This week I have mostly been reading&#8230; &#8211; Freedom Central</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-828</link>
		<dc:creator>This week I have mostly been reading&#8230; &#8211; Freedom Central</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-828</guid>
		<description>[...] be increased if another protest takes place at the same time and police resources are stretched. Wales Home carries an article this week suggesting similar views about the continued existence of no platform [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] be increased if another protest takes place at the same time and police resources are stretched. Wales Home carries an article this week suggesting similar views about the continued existence of no platform [...]</p>
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		<title>By: marcus warner</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-818</link>
		<dc:creator>marcus warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-818</guid>
		<description>Some good comments guys.

The rather sickly subject we are often unwilling to tackle is the reason the BNP are there in the first place - the people who vote for them.

I know it seems perverse for parties to think about questioning voters so strongly, but why are we not &#039;blaming&#039; the people who vote the BNP? They are not confused, mental or having the wool pulled over their eyes - anyone who actively votes for the BNP know what they are getting.

In terms of the European Elections, the &#039;fault&#039; of the political parties was that it did not have the programme to get people out to vote for them, not that they could stem any significant growth in the BNP vote. The BNP&#039;s vote was merely proportionally, rather than actually higher.

There is always a duty on those involved in political debate to be honest about people&#039;s fears over immigration - for too long anyone who dares question our current immigration policy is dismissed as a racist. Immigration is of course a subject prone to huge distortion, but it is also something that cannot be ignored as a source of political debate. Of course the BNP&#039;s take on immigration is inherently about racism, but the sense of fear that it taps into is something worth debating without resorting to straw man politics.

Regardless of the objective evidence behind it, people out of work who point to immigrants working locally in (what they see as) &#039;their jobs&#039; do have a sense of grievance that I dont feel is properly tackled by our political class. It reminds me of the debate around Europe, which is left to the anti lobby because the pro lobby feel they have more success by merely ignoring, rather than passionately advocating the other side of the story. 

This of course is not to say that we offer the BNP take on things, but we must offer an objective and understanding view of that issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some good comments guys.</p>
<p>The rather sickly subject we are often unwilling to tackle is the reason the BNP are there in the first place &#8211; the people who vote for them.</p>
<p>I know it seems perverse for parties to think about questioning voters so strongly, but why are we not &#8216;blaming&#8217; the people who vote the BNP? They are not confused, mental or having the wool pulled over their eyes &#8211; anyone who actively votes for the BNP know what they are getting.</p>
<p>In terms of the European Elections, the &#8216;fault&#8217; of the political parties was that it did not have the programme to get people out to vote for them, not that they could stem any significant growth in the BNP vote. The BNP&#8217;s vote was merely proportionally, rather than actually higher.</p>
<p>There is always a duty on those involved in political debate to be honest about people&#8217;s fears over immigration &#8211; for too long anyone who dares question our current immigration policy is dismissed as a racist. Immigration is of course a subject prone to huge distortion, but it is also something that cannot be ignored as a source of political debate. Of course the BNP&#8217;s take on immigration is inherently about racism, but the sense of fear that it taps into is something worth debating without resorting to straw man politics.</p>
<p>Regardless of the objective evidence behind it, people out of work who point to immigrants working locally in (what they see as) &#8216;their jobs&#8217; do have a sense of grievance that I dont feel is properly tackled by our political class. It reminds me of the debate around Europe, which is left to the anti lobby because the pro lobby feel they have more success by merely ignoring, rather than passionately advocating the other side of the story. </p>
<p>This of course is not to say that we offer the BNP take on things, but we must offer an objective and understanding view of that issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-812</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-812</guid>
		<description>Patrick,
I agree with much of what you say and most (not all) of the anti-fascist movement have either accepted this or will inevitalby do so. 
What concerns me more at this stage is that certain elements of the anti-fascist movement still believe that the ANL tactic of the 1970&#039;s will defeat the 21st century fascists. I think that this is a fundamental mistake and while there is a time and a place for a vibrant public protest, Griffin and co will not be defeated with a few eggs outside Westminster.
The responsibility for defeating the BNP and others lies with the legitimate political parties, who are frankly ignoring many of the poorest estates that the BNP are targetting and skipping over some of the thorny subjects that deliver them votes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick,<br />
I agree with much of what you say and most (not all) of the anti-fascist movement have either accepted this or will inevitalby do so.<br />
What concerns me more at this stage is that certain elements of the anti-fascist movement still believe that the ANL tactic of the 1970&#8242;s will defeat the 21st century fascists. I think that this is a fundamental mistake and while there is a time and a place for a vibrant public protest, Griffin and co will not be defeated with a few eggs outside Westminster.<br />
The responsibility for defeating the BNP and others lies with the legitimate political parties, who are frankly ignoring many of the poorest estates that the BNP are targetting and skipping over some of the thorny subjects that deliver them votes.</p>
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		<title>By: marcus warner</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>marcus warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-808</guid>
		<description>Right ok, for the pedants here, me and peter black were the lonely bloggers talking about this, specifically around the issue of Question Time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right ok, for the pedants here, me and peter black were the lonely bloggers talking about this, specifically around the issue of Question Time.</p>
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		<title>By: patrick mcguinness</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-806</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick mcguinness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-806</guid>
		<description>Yes indeed, and I should have made reference to that article by Adam Higgitt in my own  because it is the first serious piece in the Welsh media (that I know of) to discuss in specifically *political* terms what one does as a political culture about fascists who are a *political* party. It also raises the issue of the consequences of not doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes indeed, and I should have made reference to that article by Adam Higgitt in my own  because it is the first serious piece in the Welsh media (that I know of) to discuss in specifically *political* terms what one does as a political culture about fascists who are a *political* party. It also raises the issue of the consequences of not doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Higgitt</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-805</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Higgitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-805</guid>
		<description>&quot;me and Peter Black were quite lonely voices on this matter...&quot;

Not quite. WalesHome.org featured an &lt;a href=&quot;http://waleshome.org/2009/05/treat-the-bnp-like-any-other-party/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article&lt;/a&gt; on this before the Euro elections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;me and Peter Black were quite lonely voices on this matter&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Not quite. WalesHome.org featured an <a href="http://waleshome.org/2009/05/treat-the-bnp-like-any-other-party/" rel="nofollow">article</a> on this before the Euro elections.</p>
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		<title>By: marcus warner</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-804</link>
		<dc:creator>marcus warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-804</guid>
		<description>Spot on - however, me and Peter Black were quite lonely voices on this matter weeks ago, good to see others taking up the mantle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spot on &#8211; however, me and Peter Black were quite lonely voices on this matter weeks ago, good to see others taking up the mantle.</p>
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		<title>By: patrick mcguinness</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-803</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick mcguinness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 08:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-803</guid>
		<description>Yes Ian, I agree pretty much with that: No Platform has not been an out and out failure, but I think it longer works. 

You also raise an important point I should perhaps have clarified: there&#039;s a big difference between the BNP appearing on BBC and them demanding, and getting, a stall at a civic event. In the latter case it is absolutely clear that they should be prevented from attending on the grounds that they intimidate and harass people. That is a documented fact and I have no problem with raising these objections to event organisers.

However, as we saw in the Glamorgan Show, the organisers let them in anyway.  This is what I mean about the choice of not giving a platform not being ours. The lack of a coherent response from political parties means that those parties then spend more time debating with each other about what to do next than taking the BNP on head-on.
No Platform is not a solution, it is a tactic. Like all tactics there will be times when its effective and times when it isn&#039;t. Sometimes it&#039;s the opposite.  to Anti-fascist activists should use it when it is necessary, and my article made clear that I respected such activists. But elected politicians have a responsibility to deal with the political side of it because it is a matter of politics. 

My article could also have raised the issue of how the BNP will now be demanding more and more stalls at civic events, festivals, even the Eisteddfod. They should be refused these, of course, but on what grounds? And what if the organiser of such an event decides to let them have that stall, what then? 

I was certainly not encouraging organisations to give them a platform, and you cannot infer that from anything I wrote. I was saying that we need to be prepared to deal with people giving them a platform, which is a very, very different point, and that the choice is not ours.  

You may have seen a QT last month with Harriet Harman, in which an audience member described some policies and then said &#039;As the BNP have demanded...&#039;. Harman dealt with it well: she attacked first the policy on political grounds (anti-immigration policy of course) and then made clear that the BNP were racist and fascist. She made a good point, and she got stuck in. 

The BNP don&#039;t just work by having visible people like Griffin at QT, they work all along the channels of respectable politics, get their stooges onto shows and radio phone-ins. That&#039;s their platform, and we can&#039;t any longer &#039;No Platform&#039; that. 

I&#039;ll say again: local festivals and civic shows, etc, are very different from a BBC Question Time. But will Plaid, or Labour, or the Tories, or the LIb Dems, refuse to attend the next Royal Welsh Show if there&#039;s a BNP stall there?  I wonder...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Ian, I agree pretty much with that: No Platform has not been an out and out failure, but I think it longer works. </p>
<p>You also raise an important point I should perhaps have clarified: there&#8217;s a big difference between the BNP appearing on BBC and them demanding, and getting, a stall at a civic event. In the latter case it is absolutely clear that they should be prevented from attending on the grounds that they intimidate and harass people. That is a documented fact and I have no problem with raising these objections to event organisers.</p>
<p>However, as we saw in the Glamorgan Show, the organisers let them in anyway.  This is what I mean about the choice of not giving a platform not being ours. The lack of a coherent response from political parties means that those parties then spend more time debating with each other about what to do next than taking the BNP on head-on.<br />
No Platform is not a solution, it is a tactic. Like all tactics there will be times when its effective and times when it isn&#8217;t. Sometimes it&#8217;s the opposite.  to Anti-fascist activists should use it when it is necessary, and my article made clear that I respected such activists. But elected politicians have a responsibility to deal with the political side of it because it is a matter of politics. </p>
<p>My article could also have raised the issue of how the BNP will now be demanding more and more stalls at civic events, festivals, even the Eisteddfod. They should be refused these, of course, but on what grounds? And what if the organiser of such an event decides to let them have that stall, what then? </p>
<p>I was certainly not encouraging organisations to give them a platform, and you cannot infer that from anything I wrote. I was saying that we need to be prepared to deal with people giving them a platform, which is a very, very different point, and that the choice is not ours.  </p>
<p>You may have seen a QT last month with Harriet Harman, in which an audience member described some policies and then said &#8216;As the BNP have demanded&#8230;&#8217;. Harman dealt with it well: she attacked first the policy on political grounds (anti-immigration policy of course) and then made clear that the BNP were racist and fascist. She made a good point, and she got stuck in. </p>
<p>The BNP don&#8217;t just work by having visible people like Griffin at QT, they work all along the channels of respectable politics, get their stooges onto shows and radio phone-ins. That&#8217;s their platform, and we can&#8217;t any longer &#8216;No Platform&#8217; that. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll say again: local festivals and civic shows, etc, are very different from a BBC Question Time. But will Plaid, or Labour, or the Tories, or the LIb Dems, refuse to attend the next Royal Welsh Show if there&#8217;s a BNP stall there?  I wonder&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://waleshome.org/2009/10/confronting-the-bnp/comment-page-1/#comment-792</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://waleshome.org/?p=2701#comment-792</guid>
		<description>It is wrong to say that &#039;no platform&#039; has been a failure. It has just been one of many tools to deal with organised fascism. It would I believe, also be very unwise to encourage organisations other than one&#039;s who have a public mandate, to give the BNP a platform. What you are not stating here is how intimidating they are to many minorities, by just being present at an event.

However, I do not see how the &#039;no platform&#039; position can now be held on every occasion , as their relative electoral success in England effectively means that they have created their own platform. Where organisations are forced to share a platform with them, then we need to do our homework as the BNP are no mugs anymore. They have spokespeople who are both intelligent and media trained and a few BBC journalists who took things for granted, have already been caught out.
After all is said and done, do not make the mistake of treating the BNP like just another party. Of course there is the risk of making them the anti-establishment vote at a time when politicians are hated, but I&#039;m afraid that&#039;s down to the ineptitude of the main parties and not the efforts of fascists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is wrong to say that &#8216;no platform&#8217; has been a failure. It has just been one of many tools to deal with organised fascism. It would I believe, also be very unwise to encourage organisations other than one&#8217;s who have a public mandate, to give the BNP a platform. What you are not stating here is how intimidating they are to many minorities, by just being present at an event.</p>
<p>However, I do not see how the &#8216;no platform&#8217; position can now be held on every occasion , as their relative electoral success in England effectively means that they have created their own platform. Where organisations are forced to share a platform with them, then we need to do our homework as the BNP are no mugs anymore. They have spokespeople who are both intelligent and media trained and a few BBC journalists who took things for granted, have already been caught out.<br />
After all is said and done, do not make the mistake of treating the BNP like just another party. Of course there is the risk of making them the anti-establishment vote at a time when politicians are hated, but I&#8217;m afraid that&#8217;s down to the ineptitude of the main parties and not the efforts of fascists.</p>
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