Can’t you two even try to get along?
- Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Lib Dems lock horns – again
IN THE AFTERMATH of the 2008 local election results in Wales, the South Wales Echo interviewed me for an article on the possible governance options for Cardiff City Council. For the previous four years, the Liberal Democrats had governed as a minority administration. My view was clear: the Welsh Liberal Democrats needed to team up with Plaid Cymru and form a majority coalition. This is indeed what subsequently happened.
It wasn’t just the electoral mathematics that persuaded me that such a deal was the right one for both parties in those circumstances. The key point was that ”the two parties could work together if they set out a joint platform with environmental proposals at the heart of a programme for government.” There was so much common ground between the two parties, it seemed totally natural that Plaid and the Lib Dems could and should work together in running our capital city.
There are strong points of synergy between them and some remarkable similarities, and not just in the Cardiff context. On a broader local government level they share a commitment to introduce proportional representation and also prefer a local income tax instead of the Council Tax. They have both mainstreamed environmentalism into their core thinking for a long time, and both use “green” litmus tests in policy development. Both parties are also avowedly pro-European. And they have both opposed the introduction of tuition fees (but let’s come back to that one later).
On the constitutional question of Wales there has been much to unite them too. Of course, the Liberal Democrats do not favour independence or self-government for Wales, but they have been closer to Plaid than anyone else in analysing the shortcomings of the current devolution settlement. Back in 1997 they were united in supporting the establishment of the Assembly, but critical of the powers on offer, agreeing that a more “Scottish style” settlement was necessary. Roll on a few years and they were united in supporting the Richard Commission recommendations as the basis for the next stage of devolution. They both shared similar reservations about the Government of Wales Act 2006 too, and have been equally critical of the pace and capacity of the new legislative system at work in Wales. If you remove the idea of independence as a long term aim for Plaid and therefore part of the constant context, on occasions it has been difficult to tell Plaid and the Lib Dems apart.
Yet despite all that unites them, the simple fact of the matter is that on so many levels Plaid and the Liberal Democrats really do hate one another. It’s a deep rooted distrust and dislike that can turn quite mild mannered advocates into ranting denouncers at the drop of a Focus leaflet. If you don’t believe it, just suggest to an elected or aspirant politician from either party that their parties are quite similar. Then stand well back.
This is reflected in real political clashes at the Assembly on a regular basis. As Lib Dem leader in Wales, Kirsty Williams makes a point of being directly challenging to Plaid in government on every possible occasion. Whether it is the state of the economy, or the need for a speedy referendum on future powers, or tuition fees for students (that one again), the Lib Dems never miss an opportunity to sock it to Plaid. And Plaid never misses the chance to throw a political barb straight back.
Both sides are ultimately seeking to dominate the same territory. This is not traditional geographic political territory. In most places where the Lib Dems are particularly strong, such as the urban centres of south Wales or border town Wrexham or the two Powys constituencies, Plaid barely figures at all. And vice versa for the Liberal Democrats in Plaid areas in the west of Wales or valleys councils such as Caerphilly or Rhondda Cynon Taff. Only in one seat, Ceredigion, are the two really challenging one another directly, though the enmity arising from Plaid’s Simon Thomas having lost the seat in the General Election of 2005 has certainly contributed significantly to the mutual political dislike.
Rather, in three particular non-geographic ways the two sides are seeking to occupy the same space. The most closely contested of these is the online media in Wales. Unlike England, Wales does not have a blogoshpere which is dominated by a right/left battle. Here by far the biggest armies come from Plaid and the Lib Dems. They are easily the most tooled up of the four parties and – as it has been demonstrated – rarely shy from an online skirmish. Everything that either side writes is seized on by the other. Just check out the stream of comments on this story about a “senior Lib Dem” view on reducing funding for the Eisteddfod. It even got national press coverage as Plaid and Lib Dem spokespeople slugged it out in print as well as online.
Take a peep at Freedom Central, the aggregate blog of all things Welsh Lib Demmy. Check out the “Browse by tags” section on the front page, which illustrates which tags articles on the site use most often. Two tags stand out by a mile – Kirsty Williams (no surprises there, she is the Welsh leader) and Plaid Cymru. Then examine the articles themselves. Titles such as “Naive Cymru“, “The weakest Plaid Cymru Minister?” and “Plaid’s fees u-turn could bite them even more” need little explaining.
And it works both ways too. Adam Price is as keen to lambast Lib Dems as he is to attack Labour in Westminster. Look at What is the point of the Liberal Democrats?. Or read through his latest offering in the war of ideas, The strange death of Liberal Wales, which pulls no punches in dissecting what he believes are the inherent flaws in the Lib Dem position on culture policy. The other Plaid bloggers can’t resist either. The long-running online feud between Peter Black AM and Guerrilla Welsh-Fare, for example, shows no sign of ending. Indeed, Guerrilla Welsh-Fare proudly displays a Peter Black quote, “You are not as bad as Ramblings”, as part of the header of his site (Welsh Ramblings of course being another prominent, if anonymous, Plaid blogger). This post from WalesHome contributor and recent Plaid convert Marcus Warner satirises the situation rather neatly.
A second strand of territory is ideological inheritance. In his comment on the Eisteddfod story, Adam Price reflects that “David Lloyd George will be turning in his grave” at the suggestion the Eisteddfod lose some of its funding. It is a telling phrase. In the first part of the twentieth century it had been the Liberals that had driven forward the case for devolution or home rule, both for Wales and other parts of the UK. Of course, Liberalism went into meltdown in Wales shortly after the First World War. For the next half century the party existed on the micro-level in Welsh politics as the two big parties, Labour and the Conservatives, dominated both here and in Westminster. At the same time Plaid’s first half century brought little real sign it was ever destined to be more than a peripheral movement on the fringe of Welsh politics. During this period, small and excluded as they were, both Plaid and the Liberals were inheritors of the Lloyd George tradition.
But neither side has ever been comfortable with the way the other has interpreted it. For Plaid, the Liberals are often irrelevant compromisers; for the Liberals, Plaid’s obsession with independence over other constitutional matters is misguided. And both sides believe they are the real inheritors of the original Liberal radicalism of Lloyd George. The eminently quotable Adam Price expresses Plaid’s perspective in the closing section of his reflection on “The Strange Death of Liberal Wales“: “…The underlying values with which Liberals in Wales now identify: urban not rural, modern not traditional, British not Welsh. The Liberals in Wales - which would once boast in the days of Emlyn Hooson, Geraint Howells, and even Richard Livsey of their small ‘n’ nationalist roots - have now possibly overtaken the Welsh Conservatives as the most anglicised party in Wales.”
The third territory they are both seeking to occupy is the most prized of all: a place in the Welsh Assembly Government. Although both may pretend it is to lead the Government that is their aim, political reality so far means they have both spent different points of the last decade working with Labour as junior partners. Between 2000 and 2003 it was the Lib Dems who “propped up” Labour, and since 2007 it is now Plaid Cymru. And every time one of them joins a coalition, the other accuses them of selling out on their policies and their voters. That is why the Lib Dems threw everything at Plaid earlier this year when the Welsh Assembly Government of which Plaid is of course part revised its position on tuition fees. Had the situation been reversed, Plaid would have done the same to the Lib Dems. There is more than just the battle for student votes in Ceredigion at stake here. There is the desire to paint the other party as impure, tainted by compromise, and therefore not to be trusted. Yet of course governing in a coalition means a degree of compromise will be inevitable – just don’t expect Plaid or the Lib Dems to miss the chance to point out an absence of purity when such choices are made. And to keep reminding the electorate.
It is because of this battle over three territories that the ongoing war of words between the two parties seems so bitter. That’s not to say other parties don’t disagree in the strongest terms - Plaid and Labour in some Valleys areas, or the Conservatives against their myriad foes are constant demonstrations of this. But at the moment Plaid and the Lib Dems seem to reserve their harshest phrases for one another.
One thing’s for certain though: neither Plaid people nor Lib Dems will have agreed that they are in any way natural allies. Some of them may even be prompted to blog later today to explain exactly why they are miles apart. They usually don’t need much provocation. Maybe “Plaid Cymru” will be even bigger than “Kirsty Williams” on the Freedom Central tag aggregator by the end of today.
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Without wishing to look too stupid or ruin Daran’s argument (if I get time I’ll come back to the different philosophical outlooks of a socialist party and a liberal one.. ) but we’ve been a lax on ye olde tagging front at FC. I’ll try and correct that over the next day or so. But if anyone knows of an autotagger for a wordpress blog let me know..
What I would say is that I would suggest there is more of a Lib Dem obsession with Plaid than the other way around. If you look at Adam Price’s blog post they all seem in response to Lib Dem attacks. Granted there is a lot of attacks by some plaid blogs but they are less of a fued and more blogging on what it sees as hypocrisy, which in fairness with the lib dems there is a lot of blogging to be done.
I am suprised with the Lib Dem approch mind. Aside from Ceredigion where are Plaid its natural oppoenents. They have done little attacking of Labour, who if they are to make ground would be the natural political enemy. I think the strategy could prove costly as Kirsty apparently values keeping potential coalition partners sweet above actually making gains for the Lib Dems. I think there is a strong chance that they will make losses at the Westminster election, which would make it 2 from 2 for Kirsty in failures. How much pressure will that put on her for the Assembly? If it was a larger group I think her position could be under threat. As it is there are only 6 with one just stepped down as leader and one one retiring. Maybe the complaicency of knowing she will noty get the boot is what makes it difficult for Kirsty to look at more radical and inovative approches to strategy
I suggested the same thing to a Plaid AM a while back. Don’t think she was very impressed lol
“They have done little attacking of Labour”
I was quite struck by Jenny Randerson’s response to the unemployment figures this week in that she pointedly chose to attack Labour rather than Plaid or IWJ.
It’s the law of the schoolyard: the boy and girl who appear to have a mutual hate actually secretly fancy the pants off each other.
Was amused by this comment which my friend Mark Hinge left on my facebook update with regard to the article: ….of course the photo of these two red stags, would of been taken during what is termed ‘The Rut’…a time of high hormonal change in both male and female deer…. .some commentators may say that is reflective of the poltical scene today?….Comments?
Political knock about on blogs often stems from the personalities who blog in my view. I also think the Lib Dem/Plaid blog thing is more to do with the fact that the people involved go out of their way to highlight each other’s supposed failings. I still think anonymity is not acceptable in that arena, but hey-ho.
It is always interesting to ask party activists who they see as the enemy, largely because it ignores the electoral reality.
When I heard that Plaid and the Liberals had struck a deal in Cardiff, I was not surprised, I even predicted it. I knew that Neil McEvoy (despite the rhetoric on his Youtube piece, that was politics) preferred a deal with the Liberals than with Labour on a national level. It seems to be working better than the One Wales thing. As for the philosophical differences between a liberal and socialist party that is a matter of semantics. Radical liberalism has more in common with Plaid’s form of utopian socialism than Labour’s semi statist brand. And what were the SDP? Gaitskellite Socialists. If you read the Echo you would think that the present administration was the most unpopular one since Hitler. That however is misleading, there was the same level of hostilities in “viewpoints” prior to the last election, and what happened? Labour lost half their seats and Plaid and the Liberals gained. My personal feeling is that this is the wave of the future. Both have to work to increase their seats in the Assembly for this to be a reality. Rainbow may be possible!
Speaking as a Plaid Cymru member, I think that the problem from our end is mainly cultural, rather than ideological. Whatever differences exists between Labour and Plaid Cymru, there is still a feeling within PC that Labour are the party of Balsom’s Welsh Wales, and therefore part of the same family as us. With their retreat to the Eastern Margins, the Lib-Dems have become the party of British Wales, and therefore seem alien to Plaid Cymru’s core constituency, whether in Caerffili or Caernarfon.
Someone referred to the differences between a socialist party and a liberal one. In reality both Plaid and the Lib Dems are hybrid parties.
The Lib Dems were born as a merger between the Liberal Party and the Social Democrats and caonatin strands of both.
Plaid grew out of the Liberal movement in the early C20th, and the liberal wing of the party is probably the largest (Dafydd Iwan refers to himself as a liberal) but also has an increasingly vocal Socialist/Social democratic wing.
The do indeed have much in common, and the fact that with their heartlands are (with the exception of Ceredigion) mutually exclusive means that they should really stop attacking each other and concentrate on oncreasing their representation in their target areas to the extent that they could form a Plaid/Lib Dem coalition in 2011.
Of course they could be really smart and put up joint candidates. Does anyone know in many constituencies the combined Lib Dem/Plaid vote would give them a majority? Or where it is so close that if they pooled their resources they could wn a seat?
Oh and Plaid and the Lib Dems aren’t only in coaltion in Cardiff, but also in Gwynedd and I undertsnd that they worked together even when Plaid had an absolute majority – so they can get along very well.
Balsom is load of cobblers. As a Cardiffian and proud Welshman I find the idea that we think of ourselves as more British than Welsh to be just slander. I maintain there is a bigger ideological gap between Fabian Labour and Utopian Plaid than Welsh Liberalism.
A few brief observations: 1. Plaid are in coalition with Lib Dems in Swansea too.
2. The idea that Plaid are being singled out is a misconception. The Welsh Lib Dems are in fact attacking Labour equally. It is called scrutiny. Because Plaid are not used to being scrutinised they are reacting more vehemently to it and concocting barking mad conspiracy theories such as those mooted on the GWF blog. It is their over-the-top reaction that provokes a response and gives the impression of them being picked on.
3. Having said that I cannot see how you can claim common ground when we are Liberals and they are not.
“Having said that I cannot see how you can claim common ground when we are Liberals and they are not.”
That is the same semantic bullshit that is in an around the debate about who is ‘progressive’ and who is not.
Can you please refer me to any policies that Plaid support that are not liberal? Liberal politics are very important to me, so I am keen to hear you Peter.
It is not a policy issue Marcus it is instinctive, it is attitude and it is general approach.
That sounds like the guys with sticks who look for water, or a faith healer.
Seems a bit a voodoo if you ask me.
Really pleased with all the interest this post has gained, with a range of engaging comments here but also observations made by Marcus Warner on his blog(http://sweetandtenderhooliganwelsh.blogspot.com/2009/08/plaid-and-lib-dems.html), an alternative stance by Simon Dyda on his (http://www.simondyda.net/2009/08/love-hate-and-lib-dems.html), a strong mention on Swansea Inside Out(http://insideoutswansea.blogspot.com/2009/08/if-you-cant-join-em-beat-em.html), and Matt O’Grady giving the idea of common ground some credence on Freedom Central (http://www.freedomcentral.org.uk/2009/08/this-week-i-have-mostly-been-reading-4.html).
Will try and tackle a few of the issues thematically.
Local Government: Cardiff is indeed not the only example where Plaid and the Liberal Democrats form part of the same administration at a local government level. My original post does not state this, but I can understand why people concluded a Cardiff-centric approach. The choice of the capitol was simply in the context of the original article which I referenced, so this conception was more a product of context or ego than anything else. There are indeed several other authorities where the two parties share power. Since the Lib Dems are in Cabinets in some 14 of Wales’ local authorities, that is not surprising. What does mark Cardiff out, however, is a point which perhaps I should have made: it is, I think, the only authority where the ruling coalition is solely composed of Plaid and the Lib Dems.
Tagging: There may well be problems with the tagging software on Freedom Central. Our own WalesHome technology is not perfect either, since some browsers seem unable to leave comments. But I don’t think this takes away from the original point that I was making.
Ideology: There is of course a big difference between socialist and liberal parties and the post does not, I hope, confuse them. The common ground which is being pointed to is in respect of policy not ideology, notwithstanding the references made to ideological inheritance. Accepting that, it surprises me that parties which do not have explicitly liberal ideological roots are perceived as intrinsically illiberal. For many activists, and certainly for voters, it is through the prism of policy and not ideology that parties are viewed. Further, I think there is more to be said in reference to political parties being hybrid creations from different ideological streams and have some sympathy with the view expressed by Welsh Connection: “Someone referred to the differences between a socialist party and a liberal one. In reality both Plaid and the Lib Dems are hybrid parties.” This may be a theme worth returning to and writing on, taking on board the whole party political spectrum.
Blogging: I was struck by the observation “Political knock about on blogs often stems from the personalities who blog in my view. I also think the Lib Dem/Plaid blog thing is more to do with the fact that the people involved go out of their way to highlight each other’s supposed failings.” This chimes with one of the territories I identified in the original post. In truth it was the online skirmishes which first got me to consider this whole issue and perhaps as an avid consumer of online media there is more than a chance that I have over-emphasized the degree of conflict overall.
But it certainly made an interesting basis for a well-read post and a vibrant discussion thereafter.