Comments on: Breaking social mobility’s glass ceiling http://waleshome.org/2009/08/breaking-social-mobilitys-glass-ceiling/ Independent analysis from and about Wales Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:59:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Will Ford http://waleshome.org/2009/08/breaking-social-mobilitys-glass-ceiling/comment-page-1/#comment-136 Will Ford Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:28:37 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=981#comment-136 There are some excellent ideas in this essay, and who can argue that we should remove barriers and open doors? But - although I am in no position to question the findings of the Milburn report, in my own experience it seems too bleak. As a middle aged Welshman from the valleys I have seen much upward social mobility. In my far off schooldays most of my contemporaries' fathers (as it seemed only the fathers worked full time outside the home) were miners or in various manual and semi-skilled occupations. When I consider what happened to my schoolmates, I see that most have done well. Several are solicitors, one is a judge, there is (I think, a doctor and a dentist) and people other professional and well-paid jobs. I am doing OK, too. It was quite a leap in one generation - probably due to pushy and aspirational parents. Maybe things have deteriorated due to financial pressures on families. There are some excellent ideas in this essay, and who can argue that we should remove barriers and open doors?
But – although I am in no position to question the findings of the Milburn report, in my own experience it seems too bleak. As a middle aged Welshman from the valleys I have seen much upward social mobility.
In my far off schooldays most of my contemporaries’ fathers (as it seemed only the fathers worked full time outside the home) were miners or in various manual and semi-skilled occupations. When I consider what happened to my schoolmates, I see that most have done well. Several are solicitors, one is a judge, there is (I think, a doctor and a dentist) and people other professional and well-paid jobs. I am doing OK, too. It was quite a leap in one generation – probably due to pushy and aspirational parents. Maybe things have deteriorated due to financial pressures on families.

]]> By: Marcus Warner http://waleshome.org/2009/08/breaking-social-mobilitys-glass-ceiling/comment-page-1/#comment-131 Marcus Warner Mon, 10 Aug 2009 08:12:03 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=981#comment-131 "SOCIAL mobility – or lack of it – is a bigger problem in the UK than almost anywhere else in the Western world." I liked this article, but I think that might need a fact check. The problem I find with any of these reports is that they are written by either the elite, or the formerly working class but now elite. They are then discussed by those who have ‘made good’; ranging from guilt to envy to general indifference. The working class and how to improve their lot has become a spectator sport fo the elite. We never get working class, regional people putting forward ideas... Social mobility is another rather amorphous concept too. I mean, although the ‘professions’ are dominated by the well off, what do you think would have to those rich people if they was bumped from them by the lower classes? For social mobility to work, you are going to have to have people who are on top currently coming back down the social mobility ladder. The gutlessness of the political class is that they won’t dare mention this, it is not the poor people that vote them in right? Much of the lack of social mobility is because the target is ever moving. The privileged few will always try to make another advantage out for themselves. Internships are currently the en vogue barrier, but give it a few years, there will be a new set of barriers that can only be bought by money or influence. I don’t mean to be too negative, I think there needs to be a more honest debate to a certain degree. The political class are trying to present this as a have your cake and eat it argument, as per usual. The fact is that working class kids entering the professions will mean less rich kids will, this truth is the reason Governments wont genuinely tackle it head on. “SOCIAL mobility – or lack of it – is a bigger problem in the UK than almost anywhere else in the Western world.”

I liked this article, but I think that might need a fact check.

The problem I find with any of these reports is that they are written by either the elite, or the formerly working class but now elite. They are then discussed by those who have ‘made good’; ranging from guilt to envy to general indifference. The working class and how to improve their lot has become a spectator sport fo the elite. We never get working class, regional people putting forward ideas…

Social mobility is another rather amorphous concept too. I mean, although the ‘professions’ are dominated by the well off, what do you think would have to those rich people if they was bumped from them by the lower classes? For social mobility to work, you are going to have to have people who are on top currently coming back down the social mobility ladder. The gutlessness of the political class is that they won’t dare mention this, it is not the poor people that vote them in right?

Much of the lack of social mobility is because the target is ever moving. The privileged few will always try to make another advantage out for themselves. Internships are currently the en vogue barrier, but give it a few years, there will be a new set of barriers that can only be bought by money or influence.

I don’t mean to be too negative, I think there needs to be a more honest debate to a certain degree. The political class are trying to present this as a have your cake and eat it argument, as per usual. The fact is that working class kids entering the professions will mean less rich kids will, this truth is the reason Governments wont genuinely tackle it head on.

]]> By: Helen Northmore http://waleshome.org/2009/08/breaking-social-mobilitys-glass-ceiling/comment-page-1/#comment-113 Helen Northmore Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:52:35 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=981#comment-113 This essay covers the relevant points from the Report and the issues covered but at a UK level. Are there specific issues for services and young people in Wales? As we are all aware English public schools and universities provide much of the access to the professions, and are the home and centre of the professions. Is a middle class child in Wales further disadvantaged than a middle class child in England? If so, are there Welsh specific solutions in addition to the ones listed in the report? Do we need to do more to level the playing field? (I can't claim to have any of the answers, it was just the thought that struck me as I read this article and I wanted to see other people's views) This essay covers the relevant points from the Report and the issues covered but at a UK level. Are there specific issues for services and young people in Wales? As we are all aware English public schools and universities provide much of the access to the professions, and are the home and centre of the professions. Is a middle class child in Wales further disadvantaged than a middle class child in England?

If so, are there Welsh specific solutions in addition to the ones listed in the report? Do we need to do more to level the playing field?

(I can’t claim to have any of the answers, it was just the thought that struck me as I read this article and I wanted to see other people’s views)

]]> By: marc jones http://waleshome.org/2009/08/breaking-social-mobilitys-glass-ceiling/comment-page-1/#comment-112 marc jones Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:38:47 +0000 http://waleshome.org/?p=981#comment-112 We have a society based on class and inherited privilege, starting with the monarchy and Lords. So it's no surprise that even a Blairite like Milburn concluded inequality is structural - the pity is that his conclusions are so limited. If we're serious about reducing inequality, how about starting with cutting tax breaks and charitable status for private schools. This is the start of the fast-track system to the top for the elite - in the UK just 7% attend fee-paying schools yet, as Heledd says, they dominate many top jobs. About half Oxbridge entrants are from fee-paying schools. In Wales we have fewer in this top strata partly because only 2% of pupils in Wales attend fee-paying schools - but of course many jobs still go to people based on who they know rather than on merit further down the pecking order. Finally, if this inequality isn't challenged then it's highly likely that demand for unskilled workers will grow - as butlers, maids and cooks for the elite. As well as the huge army of carers needed for the growing elderly population. I fear that, unless we make a decisive shift towards a more equal society, we are heading for a US-style society divided between no go zone ghettoes run by gangs and gated communities policed privately. We have a society based on class and inherited privilege, starting with the monarchy and Lords. So it’s no surprise that even a Blairite like Milburn concluded inequality is structural – the pity is that his conclusions are so limited. If we’re serious about reducing inequality, how about starting with cutting tax breaks and charitable status for private schools.

This is the start of the fast-track system to the top for the elite – in the UK just 7% attend fee-paying schools yet, as Heledd says, they dominate many top jobs. About half Oxbridge entrants are from fee-paying schools.

In Wales we have fewer in this top strata partly because only 2% of pupils in Wales attend fee-paying schools – but of course many jobs still go to people based on who they know rather than on merit further down the pecking order.

Finally, if this inequality isn’t challenged then it’s highly likely that demand for unskilled workers will grow – as butlers, maids and cooks for the elite. As well as the huge army of carers needed for the growing elderly population.

I fear that, unless we make a decisive shift towards a more equal society, we are heading for a US-style society divided between no go zone ghettoes run by gangs and gated communities policed privately.

]]>